Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

When you think of an artist is this what comes to mind? Miriam Schulman is an artist, but not this kind of artist. She is a successful businesswoman who managed to to kill the cliche of the starving artist, and grew a profitable business doing what she loves. If you met Miriam 20 years ago, you would find her at the World Trade Center in an Ann Taylor suit climbing the corporate ladder and working for a hedge fund. After 911, she gave up her profitable career in finance to pursue her true passion, art. And today, she's here to tell us her secrets for making it as an artist and business owner.

Miriam Schulman [00:00:31]:

And that is something that's really hard for many people, especially when you're just starting out. You're like, oh, I'm trying to make money. I shouldn't be investing money. But that is really when my business started to take off is when I had some help with it, because you know, there, we always think, oh, if I only had more hours in the day, I can get more done. But that's always a lie because we all have a limited amount of energy, and we all have a limited amount of genius time and we shouldn't be spending that genius time doing things that shouldn't be done by us.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:06]:

Welcome to the creator's adventure where we interview creators from around the world hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey, everyone. I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Hey, everyone. We're here today with Miriam Schulman. She is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:37]:

Her signature coaching program, the artist incubator, teaches artists to go from so so sales to sold out collections. After witnessing 911, she abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full time thriving working artist. Her artworks have been featured in major publications, and her book, artpreneur, was an instant number one bestseller for art business books. Miriam, welcome to the show.

Miriam Schulman [00:02:05]:

Thanks for having me, Brian. It's such an honor to be here.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:08]:

Hey. You're welcome. My first question for you is what would you say is the biggest thing either that you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Miriam Schulman [00:02:19]:

Okay. I think the number one thing is hiring help. And that is something that's really hard for many people, especially when you're just starting out. You're like, oh, I'm trying to make money. I shouldn't be investing money. But that is really when my business started to take off is when I had some help with it because, you know, we always think, oh, if I only had more hours in the day, I can get more done, but that's always a lie because we all have a limited amount of energy, and we all have a limited amount of genius time, and we shouldn't be spending that genius time doing things that shouldn't be done by us. So I would say that would be the one thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:04]:

Yeah. That's an excellent point. I feel like that's maybe less of a common answer. I I ask everyone this question, and it's less of a common answer than maybe it should be.

Miriam Schulman [00:03:14]:

Oh, really? I'm curious. What is the most common answer?

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:19]:

I think it's maybe more often around mindset and and realizing that he had to to shift some certain way of thinking, but I think that is really important.

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:29]:

And

Miriam Schulman [00:03:29]:

But it is part of mindset to know

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:32]:

Yeah. To

Miriam Schulman [00:03:33]:

get like, to have the faith that if I pay invest in a team, that it's gonna pay off.

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:39]:

Yeah. I think so. I'm thinking about that for myself, and I I feel it was maybe slightly easier for me than it was for some to to step into feeling comfortable with having somebody else help me with things. But I think it's also because for my dad, my dad was a small business owner. He he did sales. And I I've realized, like, he was great at, like, having processes and and everything that he did, but he was not great at delegating or having someone help him with those things. And I feel like maybe I realized that I realized, I guess, those traits in him and realized that if I wanted to do certain things, I I should learn how to become comfortable with that. So maybe that influence actually helped me, become more comfortable with it even though I knew that he wasn't.

Bryan McAnulty [00:04:33]:

But, yeah, I I think it's really important, and it's not like it was super easy. It still was tough. It's like, oh, what if they're gonna do something wrong?

Bryan McAnulty [00:04:41]:

Or Right. It's it always

Miriam Schulman [00:04:41]:

is hard even when I do delegate is when they do something wrong, like, telling telling them they did it wrong or there's still things, oh, they don't have time for it. Maybe I should do it. But whenever we're doing stuff like that, then we're becoming our own assistant. It's and then if you're wondering why you aren't making enough money, it's because you're doing $5 an hour, 10 dollar an hour tasks instead of really focusing on the things that are gonna be the big lever pullers and what you're what you can do to build your own business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, not to stay too long on this, but I realized for myself recently that there were sometimes when I was being maybe too helpful to my employees. And so they have a problem with something, and I know I can fix it. So I was like, okay. I I got that. I'll take care of that. And there are certain cases where, like, that is part of my role and I should be fixing that for them.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:36]:

They really do need that from me. But there's other times where actually they can probably figure it out or whatever they do, it's probably gonna be good enough and and we can go from there. And so I I realized in certain moments like that, I have to make sure I'm giving them the agency to do that. Otherwise, I'm just taking myself out of my zone of genius kind of thing like you were mentioning earlier. Yeah. So we read on your website that your business as an artist started by painting your, son in a Batman costume. Can you share the story of how this painting kinda led to the growth of your business?

Miriam Schulman [00:06:15]:

Okay. So,

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:16]:

the beginning of your business.

Miriam Schulman [00:06:17]:

Alright. So the we're talking about a kid who was 4 who is now 24, by the way. So I've been at this a very long time, but what happened was I had painted my son

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:29]:

in his Batman costume because when he was 4 years old, every day,

Miriam Schulman [00:06:29]:

he would put it on. He was very Batman costume because when he was 4 years old, every

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:32]:

day, he would put it on. He was very proud of the sculpted

Miriam Schulman [00:06:33]:

muscles, and every day after nursery school, he put on the Batman costume. And what I did was very strategic as I would put the painting into the hallway so that when my son had play dates, and he was a very social kid, and the moms came to pick up their their their children. They would see the portrait, and my son was a very good influencer for me. He would say he what Seth's mom painted. So that really helped make my, marketing take off. So remember, this is 20 years ago. This is basically I And I honestly, Brian, I think that what I did, if you did that today, it's still more effective than putting something on social media and hoping the right person is gonna see it at the right time. Like, I knew my ideal customers were gonna be walking through my front door.

Miriam Schulman [00:07:38]:

So of, like, putting it right there for them to see was very strategic.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:44]:

Got it. So when did you decide to to start teaching online as well, other than, like, working as an artist on commission work?

Miriam Schulman [00:07:54]:

Okay. Great question. So, so 20 years ago, as I said, is when I started my portrait business. And then it was a little over 10 years ago, so it was around 2012. So, oh, 12 years ago. Time flies. So 2012, when I was selling art on Etsy, some a customer reached out to me and said, I really like your art. Do you teach online? And, Brian, I had never heard of online classes, back then.

Miriam Schulman [00:08:24]:

So I said, oh, that sounds interesting. Who who else who's doing this online class thing? And they gave me the name, and I thought, okay. I could do that. Because before I became an artist, I was working on Wall Street as a computer programmer, and I thought this is definitely something that I could do that I wanna do. And, yeah, what was the question? What how did I start doing that or when did I start doing that?

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:48]:

How did you start teaching online?

Miriam Schulman [00:08:50]:

That's how I started. So, I I I never done anything before like that before, but I had an intern working for me. So this is, again, going back to delegating and hiring help, etcetera. So but this was just a high school student, and I knew that he was filming for his high school. I said, tell me what camera to get. Tell me what software to get. And then I need you to show me how to do, like, these three things on the software. I wanted I knew that I needed to cut.

Miriam Schulman [00:09:20]:

I knew I needed to speed up sections and do a voice over. And so he showed me how to do that, and I had an online class by the next year.

Bryan McAnulty [00:09:30]:

Awesome. So I think it's really interesting that you you started, like, working in a hedge fund and then became an artist. And I think, like, for myself, I have a background of, like, as I was talking about my dad earlier, he was involved in sales. And so I think of myself more as an artist, but I got to have that experience and and understanding of of sales and marketing in a way that I think has been really helpful to me. But definitely not the same level of contrast between, like, hedge fund and artist, I think. So I'm curious in in how that helped you approach art and also, like, art as a business compared to somebody who's maybe just traditionally starts as an art artist person.

Miriam Schulman [00:10:18]:

So these are, like, lessons basically at from Wall Street that I you I feel like I use today. Would would you say that fair? That's the question. Alright. So, one thing that I was told really early on when I was even just interviewing for a job, and this was not a job that I got, but I still remember this. What I was in it was I remember it was JPMorgan, and the guy said to me that it's not so much the money that we lose. It's the money that we lose by not taking the opportunities. In other words, opportunity costs. And that really stayed with me as a really core piece of advice, and that is something that I still recognize now that oftentimes, it is those what costs us the most money are those opportunities we don't take.

Miriam Schulman [00:11:14]:

And what I found, Brian, is that the biggest difference between people who are successful and those who aren't successful, both in my world as artists, but also digital marketers and my peers who are teaching other things online, is that successful people are just willing to do things unsuccessful people aren't. And that will mean that you're gonna fail at some of them, but you're not going to get those things if you're not trying for them. So that was one piece of advice that really stuck with me. The other piece of advice that I wanna give other other people, when I was working at my job, the 1st year, I just had my head down and I thought, oh, as long as I do a good job and I'll, you know, get a big bonus and people will love me and blah blah blah. And that didn't turn out to be true. I put my head down, and I worked really hard. But by the end of the year, they really didn't know what I had done. So the following year, I took it upon myself to write a memo every month that basically detailed this is what I worked on.

Miriam Schulman [00:12:20]:

This is what I got done for you. This is how I improved what's going on around here, and I would give that to my bosses. That's basically, like, marketing myself to my bosses. So it's kinda like what I it doesn't matter if you work for yourself or you work for somebody else. We are all marketing something. And I think that was a very important lesson too. And it's kind of like the nothing sells itself mentality that we are always having to market and sell whatever it is that we're doing to whoever it is that we need to advance with, whether it's your customers or your boss.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:01]:

Yeah. Excellent advice. So what would you say? Because many people believe that a career in art is not really a lucrative one, and then they might want to do that, but then they end up pursuing some other path in life. And I know maybe you had a a similar experience, but now you proved that being an artist can be a profitable business. So what would you say are, like, the key elements of making a profitable art business?

Miriam Schulman [00:13:29]:

Okay. So many things to, like, I could pick up different threads there, but I I too did not believe that I could make a living as an artist.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:37]:

That is why I took the practical

Miriam Schulman [00:13:37]:

route and that too did not believe that

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:44]:

I could make a living as an artist. That is why I took the practical route and that found myself on Wall Street and at

Miriam Schulman [00:13:45]:

a hedge fund because I didn't believe it either. There are lots of artists in my community and my peers who are making 6 figures. They are not the exception. It's it's available to everyone. But if you wanna talk about what the 5 keys are, these are gonna be the same 5 keys, and it doesn't matter if you are a traditional artist with a capital a, meaning a painter, a sculptor, a photographer, or if you have a different kind of business. Because I know a lot of people in your audience, Brian, have other kinds of businesses. So these 5 p's, which I wrote about in my book artpreneur, do apply to every business. And that is production.

Miriam Schulman [00:14:21]:

What are you producing? Are you producing something that is not a low profit item? For example, Artists in my community might make a sticker for sale or a greeting card for sale. People who have small businesses might be trying to sell an ebook for $10. So anything that you're producing that cannot be charged for a higher price, A lot of times, that problem can be fixed by just creating something that's more profitable. Because if you wanna make, just pulling a number out, $50,000 a year, it's a lot harder to find 10,000 customers for a $5 product than it is to find 50 customers for a $1,000 product. So that's what production is. It's really what are you producing. Are you producing something that is profitable? If you were and even if you're a service based business, if you were fully booked, would you be getting the income that you want? So it's a math problem. How much you're producing or how much are you offering times what you're charging.

Miriam Schulman [00:15:32]:

Is the problem that you're offering the wrong thing or is the problem that you're not, the second p, just charging enough for it? So a lot of people think cheaper is easier to sell. It really isn't true. If you think about somebody who has no furniture in their apartment. Brian, what would you guess is the first piece of furniture they're gonna buy for their apartment, assuming they have a bed?

Bryan McAnulty [00:15:57]:

A couch?

Miriam Schulman [00:15:58]:

Yeah. Correct. So a couch is, I don't know, a couple $1,000 on West Elm or Prairie Barn. Right? Maybe $4,000. Could be a lot more, but it's $4,000 They're not gonna start with an end table, even though the end table's a lot cheaper, which is $400. And unfortunately, a lot of people get caught in that thinking that, oh, I'm gonna offer something for $400 because it's less money and I'll just make it up in volume. But what people want is what's gonna make the biggest impact in their life. So a couch, a piece of art that goes over the couch, maybe it's a coaching package that's going to really teach them everything they need to know rather than learn this one little thing over here.

Miriam Schulman [00:16:47]:

So and I'm trying to speak to everybody who's in your community. People are looking for a big transformation, not a small change, not an incremental change. So that's production pricing. The next thing is who are you gonna sell it to? That's prospecting. And how are you promoting or selling it? That's the next p. And the last p is productivity. So we can dial into any of those, but that's an overview of the 5 p's. And I went into a little more detail on the first two.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:19]:

Yeah. So I I have some questions about some of them. So I think the the end table is a great analogy because I'm thinking of that myself. I have some, like, IKEA end tables somewhere in my house that were, like, $50, and definitely that that's, like, the lowest priority thing I feel like. It's like, well, if it's gonna hold the thing, that's that's all I need. I don't care how how much my end table cost. I don't care what it even looks like. The couch is more important.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:47]:

The everything else around it is more important. And, yeah, I've seen creators struggle with this in in all kinds of business models that they're selling something that is, it's not really solving a big pain. It's just like, oh, I guess that's nice to have, but the value comparatively is so low, and then they're selling it for a price that is too low. And I think also you talked about, well, okay, we can do the math then. Let's figure out if it's a service or whatever. What would it take to be fully booked and and how much would you make? And it sounds like, okay. That's really simple, but I really believe that there's gonna be people listening to this that have overlooked that because I know I overlooked that.

Miriam Schulman [00:18:31]:

Oh, I I overlooked it too. I mean, the way reason I have like I said, I've been at this for 20 years, and I remember going back at least at least 10 years ago before I had online classes. And I was back then, I was really into the secret and law of attraction, and my friend and I were gonna talk about how we're gonna manifest our stuff. But then we I said to her, Glenda, if we were to sell everything we have here, we're not going to make the money we want. Like, we actually went through and did the math. It was like we either have to create more art or charge more or both. But that math problem, a lot of people don't do. Like, they don't think about, okay.

Miriam Schulman [00:19:10]:

If I'm a website developer and I'm charging $1,000 for a website design, but it takes me all month and I can then I can only do 12 a year. And I'm not a website designer, so I don't know how long it But my point is is you gotta you gotta figure out that basic math. It's not calculus.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:29]:

Yeah. It's it's not a hard math problem

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:31]:

to solve,

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:32]:

but, but we kind of ignored it because for me

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:34]:

it was

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:34]:

like 2 years in business and I was doing okay and like I I wasn't making a ton of money but I I was profitable enough and so, like, things were fine, but I didn't really look at it. I didn't really know even how much I was earning. And then when I went and did the math, it was like, oh, okay. Well, if I wanna grow, like, this is what's gonna have to change or what's gonna have to happen. And then it's so obvious, but if you don't solve that problem, then you don't really even know your own numbers. So I think that's definitely a big one, but I'm curious, What would you say to the person then who's listening to listening to this? They say, okay. Fine. I if I you're telling me I'm selling something that's too cheap, I'm not gonna be able to to make enough from that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:17]:

I'm gonna need to get too many customers. What do you say to the person who maybe they are concerned that they can't make something that's worth that higher number or they're not worth selling something for that higher number?

Miriam Schulman [00:20:31]:

So many good questions and there's so many ways I can answer this. The number one thing that you have to know, and by you, I mean, the per you who is listening, is that what is going through your customer's mind? It doesn't matter what you're selling. I'm gonna use a few examples. Let's say I'm selling a painting for $5,000. So I'm let's say I'm gonna sell it sell it sell it to Bryte. So what's going through Bryte's mind is not whether I Miriam Schulman's painting, whether my painting is worth $5,000. What's going through Brian's mind is if he is worth spending $5,000 to get a painting that he likes. That's what's going through our customer's mind, and it doesn't matter what you are selling.

Miriam Schulman [00:21:15]:

If you're charging $5,000 for a website, what's going through the customer's mind is not if you, the website designer, is worth $5,000. Am I worth is my business worth investing this money in? So it's not about us and our worth. The customer is always worried about them sells and what their self worth is. And once you step into that empathy, it makes it a lot easier to sell. Because if you don't stop worrying about trying to prove to your that you're worth it because that's not what they're worried about. They're worried about if they're worth it. So if I'm selling a coaching program to an artist, they're not trying to decide if I, Miriam Shulman, am worth spending $2,000 on my group coaching program. They're worried if their art isn't good enough to invest in learning how to do the marketing to sell their art.

Miriam Schulman [00:22:10]:

That's what they're worried about. So if you don't understand that, you're gonna be making the wrong arguments. And that's actually something I talk about in artpreneur as I do have an overcoming objections chart that walks you through, like, what are coming objections chart that walks you through, like, what are the various objections people have and what they really what they really might be thinking about when they present an objection to you. And that does make it easier for you to have those sales conversations and ask for higher prices when you really understand the psychology of what your customer is thinking.

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:44]:

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of times they may they may say something kind of related to the price, but the price is not the problem.

Miriam Schulman [00:22:51]:

No. And it's not like they're lying to you necessarily. I mean, they might be. A lot of people will to get out of it, they'll be that'll be their their knee jerk response. It's too expensive. But sometimes they're lying to themselves. So or they're not aware of what it is that their true objection is. So it's always up to us to, like, uncover that.

Miriam Schulman [00:23:11]:

But you were also asking, I I think, something else back there, a little little slightly nuanced difference. Like, how how do I get them to raise their prices? Is that right? Like,

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:21]:

if they feel they're working comfortable with it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:23]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:23]:

Like, I guess even more specifically, like, especially that kinda, like, starving artist mindset. Yeah. How can somebody kinda get out of that and embrace a more entrepreneurial mindset?

Miriam Schulman [00:23:32]:

Okay. So a couple of things that I teach is that and and this is in my book. It's in on all my free materials too. Again, this is about the idea about cheaper not being easier to sell. So, Brian, do you have pets?

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:48]:

No. Not correct. You

Miriam Schulman [00:23:49]:

don't have a dog? Okay.

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:50]:

I had a lot growing up. Had 4 dogs growing up.

Miriam Schulman [00:23:53]:

Okay. But I know a lot of our listeners do. And if their fur baby needs something from the vet that's very expensive, they're not shopping around for somebody cheaper. And those vet bills can be very expensive, and you know what I'm talking about. Like, it could be a $2,000 procedure. You're not gonna go look for the guy who's only charging $100 because you don't trust them. So, we think cheaper is easier to sell, but really our customers think there may be something wrong with it if you're not asking enough, and they are looking for something that is known as reassuringly expensive. So the same thing is true for people who buy wine.

Miriam Schulman [00:24:37]:

I know my husband, he just assumes that the $20 bottle of wine is gonna get in the level of wine that he wants. He doesn't think that the $10 bottle wine might be just as good or, you know, no. It's it's gotta be this price range. Our customers think the same way. We're not looking for the cheapest vet. You're not looking for the cheapest plastic surgeon. You're not looking for the cheapest babysitter. If somebody tried to sell you a Rolex watch for $49, you're you're gonna pass on it because you think it's a fake, you probably would pass on a $400 Rolex watch too.

Miriam Schulman [00:25:13]:

Am I right?

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:14]:

Mhmm.

Miriam Schulman [00:25:16]:

So it would be easier to sell a watch for 4,000 a Rolex watch for 4,000 or even $5,000 than it would be for $400 or $49. So we need to look and behave as if we are a Rolex.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's especially important for, like, the independent, like, solopreneur, the artist to not try to compete on price because of, like, all the reasons you just said. It it takes the person, like, yeah, it's it makes them lose their trust. Like, everyone looks at a specific thing they're expecting to the Rolex is a great analogy because you're expecting to pay a certain range for it. And so something out of that range, it's I don't know. It's it's almost not helpful as as you said. Like, you're you're going into it looking for that range.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:09]:

So if you are a creator selling something in a certain range, just offer it in that range and then compete on something else. And if if it's you say, well, I don't even need that much money. Okay. Congratulations. But now you can find something to do with that to serve your customers better, to to grow your business faster, or or something else. Right?

Miriam Schulman [00:26:31]:

Yeah. And we started off talking about the whole mindset, but though what happens is any time we, you and me, Brian, are asking our clients to do something they don't feel comfortable with such as raising prices. What's gonna happen is when your brain because our brains have evolved for survival, not goal treatment. Whenever our brain feels uncomfortable, we think there must be something dangerous going on here. And your brain, its only job is to keep you alive and safe. So if it feels uncomfortable, what's gonna happen is you're gonna come up with doubts, reasons why you shouldn't do that thing, And they don't feel like excuses because they feel real. Because they you're you're telling yourself these stories that feel real, like, well, I'm just starting out. Nobody pays for that in my town.

Miriam Schulman [00:27:20]:

It's an election year. I can't charge for that. It's a pandemic. I can't charge for that. And I'm sure, Brian, you've heard these same things in your community, like people saying okay. So you have this brain. It wants to keep you safe. It feels fear.

Miriam Schulman [00:27:33]:

So it comes up with these doubts. The smarter you are and the more creative you are, the better you are at coming up with those stories about why it's a bad idea. So then what happens is that you're either going to just not do the thing because why should you? What you what you what you're believing are your reasons make sense. Or maybe you go into procrastal learning mode because you don't wanna fail and you're gonna do all kinds of research to make sure you have all the steps. But then you're gonna come up across something that's gonna make you feel really uncomfortable and procrastinating, what's happened, you have fear that leads to doubt.

Bryan McAnulty [00:28:08]:

That's gonna

Miriam Schulman [00:28:08]:

lead to confusion and overwhelm. Confusion, just I'm not gonna do That's gonna lead to confusion and overwhelm. Confusion, just I'm not gonna do it. I don't know how, or overwhelm. You do procrastilaring. But either way, what you're left with is still not knowing exactly what to do, which leads to procrastination, which leads to feeling shame and guilt because you didn't follow through on your dreams. You didn't do what you said you were gonna do.

Bryan McAnulty [00:28:41]:

Yeah. So what do you say to somebody who's listening to all this and they say, okay. It sounds good. I get it. I'm not I'm not gonna make my prices too low. I I know I should be selling myself. I understand that even just as one person, what I do is important to market myself, but I'm an artist or I'm a creator. I don't feel comfortable with the marketing side.

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:06]:

I'm not passionate about the marketing side. I'm passionate about my art. What do you say to them, and is there any specific strategy that that you would kinda go to or swear by in regards to promoting yourself?

Miriam Schulman [00:29:20]:

Yeah. So, in terms of strategy, unfortunately, there's a lot of us artists who were very, very good at our craft, but we're also introverts because to be good, you have to get into your own world and a little scared of the people. Okay. So, but the thing but the thing is you really have to sell to the people and a lot of in my world, a lot of people, they wanna get a gallerist to do it for them, but then you're still down to the same problem, Brian. You're gonna have to market yourself to the gallerist to get the gallerist to sell the art for you. And then we also have another set of artists who think that they can just put things on social media. And do you talk on this podcast about the engagement rate on social media? Should we run through those numbers?

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:16]:

Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about it because I think it's it's helpful for people to know. I I do see too many people, just say, oh, they told me I should create content, and you make some random thing, but then nothing else.

Miriam Schulman [00:30:28]:

Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing. Too many people are creating content instead of customers, but that's a whole different rant. Okay? If you spent all the time you're into creating content into creating customers, you'd be much more successful. However, let me just go through the numbers because the numbers don't lie. So the average engagement rate on Instagram is 0.6%. That's not 60%.

Miriam Schulman [00:30:56]:

That's not 6%. That's 0.6%. And, Brian, the average engagement rate for an influencer, you know, those people who wanna teach us how to build our engagement rate, it's still only 1.2%. So what that means is out of a 1000 people, if you're average, only 6 out of those 1,000 people are gonna engage with you and see what you're talking about. Or if you're really good good at it, maybe 12. Now on email, the average open rate is 24%. Would you agree?

Bryan McAnulty [00:31:36]:

Yep.

Miriam Schulman [00:31:36]:

So you only need a 100 people on email to get 24 people to engage with you, whereas on Instagram, you would need 4,000 people to get 24 people because of those engagement rates. So if you have a small business, it's a lot easier to promote using email and using email marketing than it is using social media because you have a 100 people versus 4,000 people. So the trick is to move anybody you meet, whether it's in the real world or online, any of your universes to your email list.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:16]:

Yeah. I completely agree. And the, I love to to share examples or talk about examples of people who have these great businesses that they're really successful, and their social media is like, who is this person? I've never heard of this person. And, like, we think of it the same way. I think I guess we're like a software company, so it's less of, like, a a more personal brand, But we don't care about our social media followers. We only care about the email list because Yeah. The people who buy from us are the people on our email list.

Miriam Schulman [00:32:48]:

That's right.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:49]:

And that is what creators should think about and should worry about. Like, if you if you wanna be an influencer and all that, which I think most people listening or watching this right now, that's not what they wanna do. They they just care about their their craft and their passion. Then you actually don't need that many followers on social media.

Miriam Schulman [00:33:09]:

That's correct.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:09]:

You just need to find the right people and then get them on your email list.

Miriam Schulman [00:33:12]:

So I know you want a concrete example. So I have a client, and she's a digital artist. And she started working with me just this year, and a month later, she reported back that she sent an email campaign to a very small list, a 168 people. And from the one email campaign she sent to a 168 people, she made $2,700. So That's awesome. What she loved is she felt like she could take back control of her marketing, by using email. Because what I shared about the engagement rates, when you send an email out, your customer is the one or your prospect is the one who decides whether or not they're gonna open that email. So you have a little bit of control over that.

Miriam Schulman [00:34:04]:

Like, what subject line are you using? Do you write good emails that they wanna open again? On social media, the algorithm decides if your potential customer is even gonna see it. You don't have any control over that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:18]:

Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree. So in your book, Artpreneur, you name some of these, marketing diseases. Can you tell us more about Sleeping Beauty Complex, Rapunzel style marketing, and the, painted rock problem?

Miriam Schulman [00:34:34]:

Okay. So, painted rock problem, that's what we touched on earlier. That's somebody who, you know, they wanna sell painted rocks. So this is this is a true story. Somebody emailed me and says, my problem is I can't I paint on rocks and people don't see that as real art. What do I do? I was like, you just told me what your problem is. Like, I don't what what else do you want me to say? So painted rock are people who they're trying to make things that are cheap or that nobody really wants anyway. It's it's a production problem.

Miriam Schulman [00:35:05]:

Rapunzel style marketing is basically waiting for the fish to jump in the boat. It's the whole thing. Art sells itself. That mentality that, oh, if I put up a website or if I put up social media, I will get business will just come in. No. That's that is the person who's trying to hide, trying to stay safe in the cave. You don't wanna talk to the people. I get it.

Miriam Schulman [00:35:28]:

But just waiting for people to come to you is not going to get you what you want. Successful people are willing to do things that unsuccessful people aren't willing to do. So the last one is Sleeping Beauty Complex, and I bet you see this one a lot, Ryan. So the Disney movie sleeping Disney story Sleeping Beauty, a little baby is they they find out that there's this terrible curse put on her, that she pricks her finger. She's gonna die or fall into sleep or whatever the hell it was. And they whisk her away to the forest. And we don't see the braces. We don't see the pimples.

Miriam Schulman [00:36:07]:

We don't see any of the awkward teenage stage. Next thing we know, she's she's this gorgeous, tall, willowly blonde, all grown up. Now this is what I see a lot of people do with their businesses. They don't wanna market it while it's still in that awkward teenage stage, but you can't you have to love your baby and you have to market it even when you're when it's first growing up. You can't wait until it's perfect and all grown up to take it out because you miss out on all the feedback that you're gonna have along the way. My first online class looks a lot different than my last one did, and yours will too. It's okay to be bad at first. It's okay to be awkward.

Miriam Schulman [00:36:52]:

It's okay to go through that stage, but you'll never grow up if you're not willing to go through puberty.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:59]:

Yeah. I completely agree. And you're right. I do see it a lot, and I think that is such an important one because it it's not only the feedback. The feedback's one thing because that's what helps you build the product better to get to the point that it is this ideal perfection. Otherwise, you're not gonna get there. But then second is you probably need some customers to help you get there. Otherwise, it's gonna take a very, very long time to get it to what is in reality so good that everyone's just gonna buy it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:30]:

And I think maybe there's the delusion or assumption that that perfection is only a week or 2 away always, not not years away, but, yeah, you need to get that feedback and you need to be able to stay in business long enough that you can make it to the level that you want.

Miriam Schulman [00:37:49]:

Yeah. And all these things that I'm pointing out and talking to you about, it's not like I was perfect and didn't make these mistakes. I know about these problems because I've made all these mistakes. When I was starting my podcast, I kept saying to my business coach, oh, I don't know if it's a good time. It's August. Everyone's away in August. Should I wait? He was like, no, ma'am. How are you gonna first of all, your 10th podcast episode is gonna be a lot different than your first ones.

Miriam Schulman [00:38:16]:

You might as well get those first 10 out now. Get them out of the way. And this is how you're gonna learn get some feedback on it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:24]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's exactly it. Yeah. I just wanna echo the same thing because I think that's so important that, yeah, I only learned that because I can point to things where I tried to be too much of a perfectionist about it. I waited too long. Nothing happened, and then I realized, oh, I have to just start doing it. I have to just start putting it out there.

Miriam Schulman [00:38:45]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:48]:

Excellent. So I've got 2 more questions. 1st is on the show, I like to have every guest ask a question to our audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about, something you wanna kinda get everybody thinking about, what would that be?

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:04]:

Okay.

Miriam Schulman [00:39:04]:

I think we we, Brian, like, it would be really good for your audience to do that math problem we talked about. If you if you're a service based person and you're fully booked times the price you're offering, what is what does that look like? Will you be making that income you want? If you're a product based business, can you produce what can you produce in a week times what those items are you're selling it for? Does that math give you the income you're looking for? So I'm giving them a very practical next step to take. See what that math gives you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:42]:

Yeah. That's that's a great exercise. I would add that if you say, okay. Well, I'm specifically digital products. I don't have to really even make it, then maybe just multiply it by a1000 because it's hard to get a1000 customers. And Well, it If you're

Miriam Schulman [00:39:57]:

a digital person, it's almost easier. Like, let's just say you use Facebook ads, like, what is your cost per customer acquisition? How much is it costing you with Facebook ads or whatever it is that you're doing to get that customer? What is your profit on that? Is that gonna get you to where you wanna go? And you may have to pivot and do something. I I found that anytime I try to, like, give, like, a splice of my coaching program to sell it for less, it doesn't work for for me. People don't want, like we talked about earlier, the little thing that solves a little problem. They want the big thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen similar that we we have this really great discount, and it's like, oh, they're buying it after the discount ended. It's not as, it's not as important to lower your price as you think. No. So last question is before we get going, where can people find you online?

Miriam Schulman [00:40:53]:

Well, if you liked what you heard today, there's you can drink more of that Kool Aid over at the Inspiration Place podcast. But I also would love to give you a free chapter from my book Art Preneur. So it came out January 23 with HarperCollins. Just go to schulmanart.comforward/ believe, and I'll send you chapter 1 absolutely free. And schulman is schulmanart.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:21]:

Awesome. Alright. Thanks so much, Miriam.

Miriam Schulman [00:41:22]:

Alright. Well, thanks for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:24]:

I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 creators at creatorclimb.com. If you enjoyed this episode and wanna hear more, check out the Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9 AM US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our newsletter at thecreatorsadventure.com. Until then, keep learning, and I'll see you in the next episode.