Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

If you sometimes feel like imposter syndrome is getting the better of you, you are not alone. Our guest today had more than 20 years of marketing experience before she started her own business. But when she finally launched her interior design business, she didn't tell anyone, not even her closest friends.

Jacqueline Green [00:00:16]:

I was so afraid that if I told everybody what I was doing and I failed, then that would be horribly embarrassing and that really comes down to ego. I didn't realize that at the time, of course, but I was so scared that I was going to fail that I ended up being quiet about it and was trying to secretly be successful.

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:39]:

Stay tuned to meet Jackie Green and learn about her path to success and how overcoming impostor syndrome made her business thrive. Welcome to the creator's adventure where we interview creators from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey everyone, I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Hey, everyone. We're here today with Jackie Green. She is the founder, CEO, and chief strategist of Behind the Design, a training and education company that provides interior designers and creative business owners with the tools that they need to build profitable businesses. Through comprehensive education, coaching, marketing, and community offerings, Jacqueline and her team empower designers to reach their full potential.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:27]:

Her mission is to build stronger design community by reinforcing how designers are educated, trained, and supported after college. Jackie, welcome to the show.

Jacqueline Green [00:01:37]:

Thank you. I appreciate being here.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:41]:

Yeah. I'm excited to talk with you today. So my first question is, same question I'd like to ask everyone. What is your either the biggest thing you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Jacqueline Green [00:01:55]:

I think the biggest thing is well, I always think it's resilience. And so going through and understanding how we progress and grow, this company has evolved. It's an evolution of its own and being resilient and moving and adjusting as things have changed. So for instance, I really started this company in 2019, but what it looked like in 2019 and what it looks like today is totally different. Some of that good, some of it, you know, were failures along the way. And so when I look at resilience, it's how do we continuously adapt and change and make it even better. And so I'm so much more proud of it and what it's become. And so that's what I think of when I when you ask that question.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:44]:

Awesome. So I know, like, you started more with corporate firms. What was, like, the moment or experience that inspired you to transition to where you are today?

Jacqueline Green [00:02:58]:

I was in, I was a marketing director and I in a senior marketing manager, and I really became quite burned out on the whole corporate thing. And Eventually, like a lot of my customers or my clients now, they go, Okay, I'm done working for somebody else. I want to go work on my own. And so then I decided I was going to be a marketing consultant and I could do this on my own. In doing that, it was this amazing opportunity. But what I've missed, what I truly missed that I now understand so much better is that I just essentially created a job for myself. So I went out. I got clients.

Jacqueline Green [00:03:38]:

I worked. I worked really hard. I made good money, but the problem was I was always working and when I wasn't working, I wasn't making money. I did this for 7 years and so became this this really stressful thing that I constantly had to be working and I burned myself out. That's essentially, I mean, that's what it came down to. And that's why I think about the resilience I talked about earlier is how do you come through that? So I came up this bright idea that I wanted to change careers and be an interior designer. Went to school, worked for 3 different architecture firms and came back to that marketing piece as well of I had all this information and knowledge and I started teaching at the design school. And how do I share that? Because so often through schools, we build businesses.

Jacqueline Green [00:04:28]:

But do we really build businesses? We build jobs, and so we know how to like for interior designers, I know how to design. I can design something for you. Do I know how to market my business? Do I know how to hire people? Do I know how to be a leader? Do I know how to manage people? Those are things that we don't teach necessarily in design school. Some of that comes with experience. Some of it comes with failure. Some of it comes as we grow. But that was one thing that I saw this huge need and how I structured this business different than I did before because I wanted to build something that was beyond me that continued to work beyond me. Even after, you know, if I eventually decide to retire, I can't imagine that being the case, but I wanted it to stand on its own.

Jacqueline Green [00:05:10]:

I wanted to be able to go on vacation. And so it's been this evolution of if where and how do you build that business and then how do you share that knowledge with other people. And that's kinda where I came from is how do I share all that that I've learned.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:26]:

So yeah. I can really relate to that myself. I started as a freelance graphic designer and then web designer and eventually led to where I am today. And I went through a lot of that too, realizing that everybody thinks in beginning, oh, I'm gonna be a designer. I'm gonna do it for myself. I'll be a freelancer. That's that's the dream. And then you just get yourself your own job, basically.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:50]:

And so a lot of my focus was, like, really intensely thinking, well, how can I make sure that I'm doing what I enjoy and that this is creating freedom for me and not just giving myself a job? So I I do think that's really important.

Jacqueline Green [00:06:06]:

Yeah. And I think it's it's asking those hard questions too and asking yourself, okay. What part of this do I really like? What part do I not like? And giving control out. So for me, there were certain things I identified that these are not my strong suits. I am not in my zone of genius or what I enjoy, and so how can I find other people to help me with those areas? And just going from the solopreneur and thinking I have to do everything and changing that mind shift of, no, I don't. I actually don't have to know everything. I don't have to control everything. I can hire contractors.

Jacqueline Green [00:06:44]:

I can hire employees. I can hire whoever to help me with those areas that are just not my strong suit. I don't have to sit here and beat myself up trying to figure this out. And it that's a big lesson that I had learned along the way that it took me a while. The part of that is is letting go and, you know, giving that control over to somebody else as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a big challenge for especially, early entrepreneurs when they have to hire that first person of everything that comes with relinquishing some control and and letting somebody else, do part of it, not, not micromanaging them or or not actually even explaining the things and then you expect something out of them, but, they don't deliver it. Yeah. That's a that's a whole thing. But for myself as well, like, that's exactly how I'm thinking now because we're a small team at Heights Platform, but I like it that way. And I wanna intentionally grow small with the team because right now I'm fortunate and happy that I get to do exactly what I want. I get to work on the product and, yeah, I'm a generalist and have to do a lot of other things too, but I get to spend a lot of my time working on building the product directly.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:56]:

And if we were like a 100 people, a 1000 people, more than that, then I feel like I'd be either just like a manager or, like, I wouldn't be in control of the business. Either I'd be, like, giving away the business to somebody else or my job would just be managing people all day. And so I've designed it purposely with the goal of freedom first and then money and growth and all that. That's nice, but that can come on the side as long as I have the freedom.

Jacqueline Green [00:08:24]:

I think that's a really important part is that purposeful. It's identifying early on what do you really wanna get out of this. You know, we think that we're going and we're starting a business so that we create that freedom and then we end up creating a job for ourselves. And it's a really hard job. Let's face that. But being purposeful of this is what I really want, and this is what I want the flexibility to be able to do. And if that means, you know, I really am okay being a solopreneur or working for myself, but maybe I outsource the bookkeeping part or maybe I outsource this other part that doesn't really keep me in that zone of genius. Or is it like what you're saying is I wanna build a small business, but a solid one, one that is moving and growing at the right speed that works for me.

Jacqueline Green [00:09:16]:

So I think it's important that when we really go out and step into our own space from a business standpoint, entrepreneurship, that we really look at what's that purpose we're wanting to accomplish and how's the best way of getting there because I know from my own experience, what I thought in the beginning and what has kind of evolved or changed, I mean, they're different things. I mean, nobody could have predicted COVID. There's just no way anyone could have predicted that. I mean, I'm sure there's somebody out there, but, you know, that that made an impact. How did that change our life and society? And and it's the same with your business. And so kind of thinking through that of what you wanna accomplish and working towards that is really important for how you build.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's everything, I think, because I I feel bad when I see people who say, okay. I'm a solopreneur, but that's great if you wanna be a solopreneur but if you use it as like this like badge of honor as your reason for suffering, that is no good I think. So like I am not a solopreneur technically, but like I'm spoiled, like I'm here talking with you and I just got to sit down and we get to have this conversation and I didn't have to do any of the scheduling or the research or anything, I just get to do the fun part and that's because I have my team helping me. So I think there's a lot of reasons to hire somebody else and get help in the things that you don't enjoy because it doesn't have to be only you.

Jacqueline Green [00:10:47]:

Yeah. And I totally agree with you and I I hear that a lot. I hear designers that sit there and say, well, I don't want to get big. I just want to do my own thing. I want to pick the projects that I want to pick, and you know, that's okay, but that's a hobby. You know, that's what we call a hobby to profitability. That's a hobby. That's not actually building a business.

Jacqueline Green [00:11:09]:

And it's not to be mean or frank about it, but when we're truly building a business and that's truly what we're doing, it does grow beyond us. I mean, that's just that's called a business. It's okay if you wanna be a freelancer, and it's okay if you wanna do those things, and that's great. But if you know the purpose and where you're wanting to go, you can't necessarily do that on your own. Having those frank conversations with yourself of what you really wanna do is important. Yeah. But I I agree with you. It's like you get to pick the fun stuff when you're the manage when you're the boss.

Bryan McAnulty [00:11:46]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to, even if you think, well, I am I am doing a business. This isn't a hobby. It's, it's easy to get swept up in everything and not actually being paying attention to certain things. Like, I'm thinking back when I started, like, the first almost 2 years of my business, I didn't really know how much money I was making. And, like, money was coming in. I couldn't afford my expenses and it seemed fine.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:13]:

But then it wasn't until I finally took a look at it and figured like, okay. Well, if I wanna grow, then I have to get x clients and x clients take up like, the average project takes this long and and actually looking at it, it wasn't until I sat down and really figured that out that things started to change for myself. Otherwise, it kind of would just be, okay, this is what it is and which was more of a job for myself in a way at that time.

Jacqueline Green [00:12:38]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And then you transition and realize that you were building a business beyond yourself and something that you can either, you know, grow into something you sell, grow into something that you leave as a legacy, whatever that is, but looking at that purpose. And it's interesting that you made the same transition that I made that I realized one day that I wasn't growing a business as a marketing consultant. I was growing my job and my stress levels. And so I think that's a really hard thing, though, because we, entrepreneurs, we are much more into controlling things. That is hard for us to let go of it, but it's also hard to to open up and say, okay, what is it that I really want? And then how do I get there? And that how we get there is where the real challenge is. Who can help me? What can I get what do I need to do to get to where I'm wanting to go? And when you put that in your sights, I think you're more willing and more able to meet that and build something amazing.

Jacqueline Green [00:13:43]:

And it it's obvious that you're doing that right now.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:47]:

Yeah. Thank you. So we saw actually from some of your, YouTube videos, there's one where you talked about mistakes that you made early on in the stages of your business. And I'd like to to talk about some of the advice you gave in that video. You're mentioning a mistake of not telling anybody about your business. Can you share with the listeners and those watching? Yeah. Like, what why were you reluctant to share that?

Jacqueline Green [00:14:15]:

Scared, embarrassed, afraid of failure, self sabotage. Let me give you all the mindset issues that I was having at the time, not realizing that, of course, the time. When I started my marketing consulting business, I I didn't go to the people I actually worked with before. I had gone out to new people, found new people. And the same when I started interior design. I didn't go after the people I knew, not realizing that. I was so afraid that if I told everybody what I was doing and I failed, then that would be horribly embarrassing and that really comes down to ego. I didn't realize that at the time, of course, but I was so scared that I was going to fail that I ended up being quiet about it and was trying to secretly be successful and I think we do this often out of fear is that visibility part of not being visible intentionally because we fear something, whatever that fear is, And for me, it was that fear of failure.

Jacqueline Green [00:15:24]:

And when I got over that and started really looking at, no, you should be screaming to everyone you know because even though the people around you may not be your ideal target market, your ideal client, they may know somebody who is. The people that are naysayers and that are going, oh, you shouldn't do that. That's too risky. Those aren't in your target market. They're not in your audience. They aren't people that are actually gonna buy from you anyway, so ignore them. And so it took me a long time to realize that that I had quietly tried to build something that I couldn't do it on my own. And so that was one of the mistakes that I realized, and I didn't know I was doing it.

Jacqueline Green [00:16:05]:

I really didn't. I just was so fearful of failing on a greater level, but part of that is probably because, you know, I was worried and believed that I could fail. But it's, what I often tell myself, I'm like, what other choice do I have? I'm pretty unemployable at this point because I've just worked for myself for so long, and so there really isn't another choice. But what I've learned through all of that is that, yeah, you do fail along the way and those are the biggest lessons and the things that make you better at what you do.

Bryan McAnulty [00:16:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. And, yeah, my my worst fear is getting a a regular job. Not not a Yes. Not about, like, making making less money or whatever. The the real reason is I don't want a regular job.

Jacqueline Green [00:16:55]:

Yeah. I I don't wanna work for anybody who's a bad manager anymore.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:00]:

Yeah. So I I think that's interesting. I think that we we worry about that in a lot of different ways. And just recently, I had to kinda check myself on something like what you were mentioning. And I was thinking, should I make this kind of content, like, in this at this angle or framing because maybe it's gonna attract an audience that, yeah, they're somewhat related, but it's not really the ideal customer. And then I thought, well, is it really the worst thing to attract slightly more general audience? Because even if they're not my customer, they may go tell people who could be my customer. And so the worst thing to do would be to not do anything and then no one knows about you. So I I think, one of the easy shifts of thinking about this for myself was realizing that I really care about what I'm building and I really believe it can have a positive impact on people.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:54]:

And so if I want that to happen, then, yeah, like you said, should be shouting it at everybody because not not because we wanna get rich, not because we we wanna be famous, but because we're trying to make an impact with what we're doing.

Jacqueline Green [00:18:07]:

Yeah. And I think that is absolutely what we're trying to accomplish. You're not building a business or doing something just to be quiet about it. How and I think for a lot of us, like for me, we were taught not to self promote, not to go out there and brag or whatever they call it. I mean, I remember in corporate, early on in my career of being told, hey, you need to quiet and not be so passionate. You need to not bring up your ideas. You need to go with the flow of it and they almost pounded you down so that you followed the norm or what they wanted you to do. And when you go out to start your own business, that's the farthest thing that you need to do.

Jacqueline Green [00:18:54]:

You need to be out there screaming your praises and saying how you can help people and sharing those success. That's the only way you're gonna grow the business, and that is a mind shift for us because many of us were, you know, told from a young age just to, you know, sit over there in the corner, be quiet, stay, you know, you're to be seen, not heard kind of thing. And so you're really shifting against everything you've been told your whole life and to stand up for what you think. But, somebody said this to me recently, and they're absolutely right that it is selfish for you to not share your gifts with the world. And so whatever your expertise is, it's completely selfish of you if you're not actually going out there and sharing that with other people. And that's essentially what I was doing. I was so nervous about what about if I say the wrong thing? What about if I give the wrong advice? What about if my advice doesn't work? Well, you know what? Those things all happen, and it's okay. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:53]:

And and a person who really needs to learn from you, who really wants to learn from you, if you never say that thing, then then they're sitting there with nothing just because you are afraid of it.

Jacqueline Green [00:20:04]:

Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:05]:

So, yeah, I completely agree with that. People

Jacqueline Green [00:20:07]:

there's somebody out there right now just like this podcast. There's one person out there at least that needs to hear this message. In whatever, in every podcast like you put out, there's at least 1 person at that very moment. There's something in that podcast that just completely resonates with them that they absolutely had to hear. What if you'd never started the podcast? You didn't help those people. And so when we think of it that way instead of thinking, okay, well, I'm bragging. No, you're just sharing all your wisdom and knowledge to help somebody else who may not that may not have to walk in the same path, that may not make the same mistakes, that might be able to make other mistakes or do other greater things. I mean, who knows? And so I think it's important to, you know, share that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. Even so much of growth is even kind of just realizing what is possible, I think. And when you get to hear somebody talking about it, then you realize for yourself and and that's what I hope to to be able to share here. Hopefully, anyone listening to this says, you know what? They're they're talking about it like this is a thing. Like, maybe maybe I really can do this. I I hope that you do go and do that because, yeah, that's that's what I would like to share. It is possible, and sometimes that's all you need to know to have this trigger to realize, okay.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:25]:

I'm gonna do it for myself.

Jacqueline Green [00:21:27]:

Yeah. And you're absolutely right. And, it just it just like sharing that. It was really hard for me to write that and do that video about where I went wrong because that's hard for us also to admit that, okay, I was wrong. We want to show our clients that we have all the answers, but the truth is no one expects you to have all the answers, and it's okay that you don't have them all. And so when I really started looking at sharing, okay, here's all the things that I've done wrong and here's how to avoid them. If I can help other people with that, but it also helps me. It also helps me get through some of that.

Jacqueline Green [00:22:03]:

Okay. Instead of beating myself up on this, let's instead, let's adjust our strategy and move forward and make sure we are being visible. Make sure we are sharing that with everybody and being strong in our, you know, being of who we are. And so I think that's an important part of business and resiliency. And how do you endure the things you go through as an entrepreneur?

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. We we noticed also in that video that we were talking about that you mentioned a key partnership that you were, baking cookies for some realtors and you build a relationship with them. Can you share more about, like, the story of why you would think it's important to form partnerships as a business owner?

Jacqueline Green [00:22:50]:

Yeah. So I think it's really important. So what I was doing was I had started I hadn't even started school, I don't think yet, or I just started interior design school, but I knew I had a talent for interior design. But I really didn't know where to start. So what I did was I'm I'm a really good baker. I make really good cookies, and everyone is always raving about my cookies. And so I'm like, okay. I bake these cookies and I put them in individual wraps and I, you know, tied them up, and then I put my old business card on them and I paid up the little package and I would deliver them to all the real estate offices.

Jacqueline Green [00:23:23]:

And I talk about this a little bit. I don't know if it was that one or another video. I still missed a part of this strategy, but the strategy did work in some regards because it ended up getting people's attention in a world where you know, we're so busy and there's so much clutter around there. And I just delivered them to all these real estate offices across my town and where I stopped and where I should've continued was, I should've then gone the next step and said, hey, can I come in and talk to your Realtors and talk to them about how they might be able to stage homes for a higher selling for for a higher pricing? Can I come in and speak to them about how they might be more visible within their, you know, how to market better, whatever that topic was? That would have been my next thing because what happens is when you build those strategic partnerships, those partnerships are working when you're not working. So from a marketing standpoint in growing your business, marketing is something you're constantly doing. But if other people are marketing for you, that's free advertising. That's also a lot more credible. And so if someone sings your praise and you've partnered with them and they're out there going, oh, you gotta talk to my friend.

Jacqueline Green [00:24:47]:

You know, she's great at this or he's great at that. That's an endorsement that is worth a lot more than anything you can do on social media, more than anything you could do on websites. I mean, you put social proof out there, but that is more powerful than anything else. And so those strategic partnerships and finding those people, Even within your own business, there might be somebody who does something similar to you but to a different market. There might be an opportunity or a partner. I talked to a marketing firm today, a woman that owns a little marketing agency, and she has a completely different audience than I do. We're both out there networking. If I find somebody that would be perfect for her, great.

Jacqueline Green [00:25:28]:

It's outside of my ideal client. But if it's something she's working with and she's like, oh, you she specializes in this. It's like a you're kinda like doctors. You wouldn't necessarily go to, you know, one doctor because you have a different illness. I mean, it's kind of the same thing as how can you build those partnerships so people are marketing for you too.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Leverage is super important in business, and that can be through partnerships. It it can be through how you're creating content, affiliates, all of these things, and it's a lot easier and and every business that grows to a big scale is has something they're doing that is leverage. You know? They're not like, if you think of Apple or something, there's not people on the phone or or people going knocking on your door 1 by 1 just to say, like, do you wanna buy a MacBook or an iPhone today? You know, they're they have advertising. They have all all these things that are getting people to talk about them. So what other, unique strategies, did you employ or would you recommend to others to promote your education and training services?

Jacqueline Green [00:26:42]:

Yeah. So what we did, we ended up I always look at it, okay, build your foundation. But the biggest thing of building that foundation, and that's, you know, starts with your brand and your website. But in your courses that you're creating, I think one of the biggest things that you have to do is really talk to your audience. Where are they struggling? We have a course called Hobby to Profitability, and it's talking to clients or to, designers who are just getting started and they want to build. It's basically what we've been talking about here. I can't tell you how many people I had a lot of people go, oh, yeah, that's great. But I actually one of my business coaches was like, I don't think that's a good idea.

Jacqueline Green [00:27:28]:

I'm like, really? Because when I went out and actually talked to the audience, there were tons of them that were having that exact problem that I address in this. It's like not everybody knows where your vision is and your growth and so one, don't let somebody else go no and pooh pooh your idea. Just like telling your family and your family is like, oh, that's too risky. Okay. Ignore them. They are not your ideal client. But talking to your audience and figuring out what is that problem that they're solving. If you're building a community, What are you hearing in the community? What are people talking about really do that research? That's how you build stronger products.

Jacqueline Green [00:28:10]:

That's how you build better services is understanding that and so many times we're afraid to talk to our audience, but we need to. You know, what did you like about this experience? What did you not like about this experience? What did I miss on this training that I can train you differently on next time? You know, for some of the training, I also offer some live training and some software we use in the industry. And it's so important for me as I go through the live training. I use that live training experience to enhance the paid subscription online service. So for instance, I do 1 on 1. It's a lot more expensive, but I do this 1 on 1 live training. As I'm going through that, I make a note of all the questions that my live participant is asking me and then I'm like, okay, those that I can answer that in a video. I create that video.

Jacqueline Green [00:29:02]:

I put it over here in this product and the online product. You know, how do I do that? But even within my live training, I make sure when we get to the end, what have we not covered? I covered all these things. Every session. Is it the things that cover? Do we cover everything? But it gets a lot at the end. Okay. What didn't we cover that we need to cover? I'm more than willing to hop on another live session training session with them to make sure they get everything they want. But it also just goes back in to how do I build an online product or an online community that really serves my audience for the people who can't afford the higher ticket price, but they can't fight for the lower ticket price. So I think that's a really important aspect.

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:45]:

Yeah. I completely agree. And you can say that, oh, well, you can brainstorm or you can research about it or whatever or maybe you say, you know, I've been doing this so many years, so I'm I'm just gonna figure it out, but it's a lot easier if you just actually talk to the customer, find out what they're confused about. And then as you said, you you take all of that and then you make everything better and then it makes everything better for the the lower price customers, the higher price customers, everyone in between. So

Jacqueline Green [00:30:13]:

We're actually, offering and I've used this strategy before, but I'm using a little bit different in a new course that we're working on and offering it to I'm part of a networking group that are basically my target audience. It's a very small group. There's only there's less than 10 of us in there, and we meet every month, but we are actually going to offer them to take this course and give me feedback back completely free. But with the mindset of, I want you to walk through this 6 week course. I want you to tell me exactly what you got out of it, what you would have liked to, and those are my, beta customers. And so I think it's important if you're if you think that, okay, I think I know all the answers, but I'm really not sure of all the answers, Give it away to 3 people. Give it away to 5 people, whatever that is, and say, hey, here's the deal. I'm gonna give this away to you.

Jacqueline Green [00:31:13]:

I've had students come to me as well that are fresh out of I used to teach at the design school that are fresh out of school, and they really can't afford a course. I'm like, alright. I'll give you this course, but here's what I want you to do. You got to give me feedback along the way. Where did it go right? Where did it go wrong? What am I missing? Either you have to be active within the development and that's a good way of being able to test your ideas and find out what your client is missing before you do your big launch.

Bryan McAnulty [00:31:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree, and I do the same thing still now. I've helped more than 10,000 people do this, but I still will go get feedback before and then when something is ready, have people go through it first and then find out what I can improve before I release it to everyone.

Jacqueline Green [00:32:00]:

And technology technology companies do this all the time. It's part of their process. But for us to have, yeah, little businesses as a solopreneur, like I have a small business where we're just, you know, we're a small team. We don't always think the way the big technology companies, but that's always been part of technology is you build a product, you test it, and then you figure out where the bugs are, and then you adapt an according. And sometimes you still launch and you still adapt the, bugs and figure out things and continue to add modules or whatever. But you have to actually get started to do that. But that's a great way to just having that strategy in mind of having your advisory board or so. You don't have to do it on a big scale like a lot of technology companies do, but you can do it on a smaller scale and get some great feedback.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And that's one of the things that's really amazing about the information products and online courses is that you can make that feedback loop so quick. And so it's not like if you were gonna, like, print something, if you're gonna manufacture something, it takes a long time before you can make it better again. You have to

Jacqueline Green [00:33:13]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:13]:

Create a whole new version. You know, even like we mentioned Apple earlier, it's like the biggest company, still takes them a year before the next iPhone comes out and it's just some slight changes. And so with a course, you can put something out like now. You can make a couple videos, you can do a live call, whatever, put something out and then you can realize, oh, there's a big problem here. There's something I missed. Whatever. You make a new video like today and you you add it to the course tomorrow. And then maybe it's not a perfect video, you redo it again.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:43]:

But you can you can iterate on it so quickly and I think it's really powerful to be able to do that. Yeah.

Jacqueline Green [00:33:51]:

And I think you're right. And I think that's the same as when you're building a community around that and how you know, one of the questions you and I talked about earlier was just how are we expanding our courses? How are we helping people learn in a little bit different way than what they were used to? How do we stand out among all the course creators? And one of that is the community. And you brought that up, and it's absolutely the case. And when you're building that, having that ability to be able to go, hey, here's a new video. Here's a new thing that might help you. Hey, I didn't see this, but you know, we have this challenge. Maybe you're having it too. There's just so much more opportunity to be able to do those things and adapt and then re throw it out there and see what people think.

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I think everyone considering to build an online course now should have some kind of community component to it. And, like, back back when I started building Heights platform, like, very first visions of it in, like, 2015, there was a integrated community part because I see everybody throwing people in, like, a Facebook group or something and it's disconnected from the learning and then not a premium experience, from the first part, but then also just not giving that feedback loop that it had to. So when you provide people with a community, you're not only giving more value to your customers, but you're getting more value back from that because now you've got these customers who become fans of your business, who really go through all that and learn and then they see someone with a question and even they can help them out. And so your customers are helping each other in in ways to provide even more value than you could alone.

Jacqueline Green [00:35:37]:

Yeah, absolutely. And you're completely correct. And one of the challenges of if you use your platform, it's all in. It's all included, which is so important where if you do that on a Facebook group, you don't actually control that group. They can yank that at any given time. And so as you're strategizing your product and looking at the course that you're wanting to create or creator wants to create, you wanna look at what is that look like? What does that community look like and start building it on your own on your platform on your own so that you can control that that all of it, the how you assess, how you get information back, how you ask questions, you know, how it appears, where you know, what does that look like? And that's really important component as we learn. I think learning from one another is a big part of it is and I'll give you an example. I went back to school.

Jacqueline Green [00:36:33]:

I was in my forties and I was you sitting there going my early forties going. I'll be the oldest person there. I will be so nobody's gonna this is gonna be horrible. I'm like, okay, How bad do I wanna do it? The school I happen to go to was about a 5050, 6040 split between people that were just like me that had had another career and want to come back or that had raised their family was ready to try some new thing versus those that were fresh out of college. It was really interesting and then I even noticed this as when I went into teaching the same in insecurities that I had in in my forties and the same insecurities that someone had in their twenties were very similar in this arena and what I ended up loving. And when I finished, it was probably one of the biggest reasons I went back and started teaching a couple years later was it was a community. Everybody kind of relied on each other. Yeah, we were doing our own work, but we bounced ideas off of each other.

Jacqueline Green [00:37:36]:

If we didn't understand instructions, if we didn't understand what the purpose of the project was, if we were confused on something, you were able to ask other people and that's when the real learning happens is when you build those relationships in that community. Well, the same thing applies for an online community. You, you know, you can learn from one another, and the experiences that someone brings in can really help somebody else.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:02]:

Yeah. Exactly. That's a great example. Alright. So I've got one more question for you, and that is on the show, we like to ask every guest to ask a question to the audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about, something you wanna kinda get everybody thinking about, what would that be?

Jacqueline Green [00:38:21]:

Well, I really wanna know from the audience is looking at different ways of how we're teaching. We're all teaching online, but in doing that and looking at the different ways people learn, how is learning changing? There is so much information out there, which is amazing, but what techniques or strategies are people using to really stand above and make sure that their audience and their clients are learning?

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:54]:

Yeah. It's a great question. Alright, Jackie. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Jacqueline Green [00:39:02]:

Sure. You can find me at our website site at behind the designco.com. And you can also find us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook and Pinterest and YouTube at behind the design co dot com as well. It's Behind the Design Co everywhere.

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:21]:

Cool. Alright. Thanks so much.

Jacqueline Green [00:39:23]:

Great. Thank you.