Jacques Hopkins [00:00:00]:

I was a senior in college, getting my degree in electrical engineering and I don't even know why I picked up a book like that because I was all in on the on the traditional path. I've always wanted to be an engineer since kindergarten and, you know, I was pretty good at math. But I read that book and it for the first time reading that, made me want to be an entrepreneur.

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:19]:

Welcome to the creator's adventure where we interview creators from around the world hearing their stories about growing a business. Today's guest is gonna teach us how he grew his online piano course to more than $4,000,000 in sales. Hey, everyone. I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Many have asked me what software I use to record such high quality video for this podcast. I use Riverside and what's great about Riverside is it records the local camera feed from you and your guests around the world, which means crisp 4 k video without having to worry about blurriness due to internet hiccups. Riverside is also a great editor, fitting with my philosophy of making it easy for yourself to create because there is nothing that your guests or you have to download.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:06]:

We also use Riverside's AI magic clips to find interesting moments for our episode intros. And I'm happy to announce that Riverside is sponsoring this episode. And if you sign up at creators.riverside.fm /creatorsadventure and use code creators adventure, you'll get 15% off. You can find the link in the episode description as well. Now back to the show. Hey, everyone. We're here today with Jacques Hopkins. He spent 8 years as an electrical engineer before quitting to turn his passion for music into a highly successful online piano course.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:40]:

Piano in 21 days dot com has generated over 4,000,000 in revenue and has taught over 10,000 students worldwide. Today, Jacques supports his family with the passive income from his course while also teaching others how to replicate his success through the Online Course Show podcast. Jacques, welcome to the show.

Jacques Hopkins [00:01:59]:

What's up, Brian? I look. I really appreciate the opportunity. We I think we have a lot of things in common, so I'm pumped about this conversation. I know we both have some music background as well as fairly similar audiences with helping people with, online courses and online course businesses. So I'm pumped to get into this, and I really appreciate the invitation having me on.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:16]:

Yeah. Thanks so much. Yeah. I'm, I'm glad to have have you on, and and you had me on your show as well recently too. So, great to have the opportunity to talk with you here again. My first question for you is kinda maybe got to it in the intro a little bit, but I guess getting more into the nitty gritty than the online course itself. What would you say is the biggest thing that either you did or you are doing that helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Jacques Hopkins [00:02:42]:

Oh, okay. The biggest thing. There's a lot of things. Right? There's a lot of things you have to do. As a creator, what, what I find in working with other creators is that the core like, the course itself usually is the easiest part because we all have something that we can teach other people. For me, I tried I tried different businesses and whatnot, and it just it just happened to be that I had this unique story around the piano and a unique way to be able to teach people the piano. And when I got the idea 11 years ago for an online course, the first thing I did was make an online course. It seems so simple.

Jacques Hopkins [00:03:18]:

Right? But there's so many other pieces to it that I didn't realize at the time that were necessary. And even today, a lot of people don't realize it as well because, you know, they they they kind of were drawn to this because of that creative thing that they they enjoy doing, teaching cooking, teaching kids to read, teaching photography, things like that. And so, you know, you're most passionate about the course most likely, but there's so many other components. You've gotta have traffic. You've gotta have some sort of sales funnel. Urgency is

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:51]:

good to have.

Jacques Hopkins [00:03:51]:

You've got to put together a really good offer. You've got to know how to, ask the right way for testimonials and case studies that are actually effective and then how to use those. There's a lot there. But but to get I mean, you asked for 1, I would say the area people struggle with the most and and one in in the area that probably took me the the longest to figure out is the traffic piece. For me 11 years ago, the best thing was a YouTube channel to to generate traffic. And the the reason I think it was so effective is because people were searching for solutions to a problem. They were looking for the solution in a video, in a video format. So they go to like YouTube, they type in how to play piano, how to learn piano quickly, and they get some videos from me.

Jacques Hopkins [00:04:35]:

They find my stuff and it gets them wanting to learn more. And the same type of person in general that's going to search for answers in video format will also typically be a good candidate to buy a video based online course too with an a to z complete step by step system. And so I would say really, really focusing in on a YouTube channel would be my answer there but it's not necessarily that platform is not necessarily the best fit for everybody. It's it's it's niche dependent, right? You can start a podcast, right? Both of us had podcasts. Not a great traffic medium for teaching piano. Right? Audio based. You you really need to see my hands on the keyboard. So when I started my second brand helping people with courses, I did go podcast for that in 2017.

Jacques Hopkins [00:05:21]:

And so, you know, figuring out a platform, a traffic generation and audience building platform, would probably probably be my top recommendation. And today even short form video is working really well, Instagram, TikTok, but like I said, it's very niche dependent and it's dependent on what you the type of content you like to make as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's super important. Like, realizing where where is your audience and, like, where are they looking for something? Like you said, like, they're searching on YouTube, and they wanna learn how to do the thing so you can make the video about that thing. And eventually that's the kind of person they're trying to learn about that. They will wanna take a course about that. So I would say, I think YouTube is really great too. I think out of all the social media now, it's it's probably one of the best platforms and also very creator focused in, like, their revenue share and everything.

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:09]:

So I like that. But if you're somebody who's not into, like, being on video or that doesn't necessarily fit with your your niche or what you have to do, like, blogging works, podcast work, all those other things as you mentioned.

Jacques Hopkins [00:06:22]:

Yeah. And I I like, in general, YouTube's still one of my main recommendations. And it's crazy how much the YouTube game has kind of changed over the years as well. And so if if somebody, you know, is listening to this and, like, alright. You've convinced me I'm gonna do YouTube. I I don't know how long you've you've been dabbling with YouTube, Brian, but when I first started, it was all about, like, keyword research and, like, using YouTube as a search engine. Right? And that was that's what I focused on for many, many years, and it worked really well. Today, if you're starting a YouTube channel today, the most important thing is the thumbnail, right? Because it's all about the algorithm and the recommendation.

Jacques Hopkins [00:07:02]:

So you gotta have really, really great thumbnails and then you gotta have a good title and then you gotta make sure the first, like, 5 seconds are amazing to really hook people in. And I don't even worry about keyword research with YouTube anymore.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. That that's true. And the algorithm itself does a really good job of of showing the thing to the right person as long as you can get their attention with that title and thumbnail. What do you say to the person who is listening to this and is concerned about giving away too much of their content for free?

Jacques Hopkins [00:07:34]:

So that is just, from my experience, my own personal experience, and seeing so many examples, that's just not, something to worry about. And you just you gotta you gotta trust me on that one, because with content marketing, YouTube or otherwise, we you post content of just like isolated topics, right? So with piano, like, you can I'll show you, like, one core concept in a video or one quick win in a video, but it's not an a to z step by step system. Right? And so if you go through my YouTube channel, there's nothing there's nothing in my course that you won't find somewhere in my YouTube channel as well, but it would be really hard to to, like, learn my whole system in the right order from just my YouTube videos. Right? So we just give them a taste, in in our videos and you don't have to you don't have to, draw a line anywhere with, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna save that for the course. I'm gonna save that for the course. You can you can make videos about all your stuff, but people buy the course not for the information but for the transformation, the end result, the dream outcome that they're looking for. And so if you can get people to trust you, give them quick wins, ultimately, like with my audience, they're looking to play songs they love on the piano in as little time as possible. And if I can sell them that dream, that's that's when they pull up their credit card to actually buy the course, versus just a YouTube video or 2.

Bryan McAnulty [00:09:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's the the packaging of everything in that step by step format to take them to the result is that's what they wanna buy. And I think that it leads to another thing that you mentioned earlier already where people might say, well well, what if somebody makes a YouTube playlist and and constructs all the perfect things? And it's not just for your videos, but it's somebody else's, and now it's gonna now it is this step by step. Well, the the other part of it is the the unique messages and experiences from you as an individual creator. And you mentioned that a little bit earlier that you you felt you had these unique experiences to share. How how do you think that, like, what how would you describe that I guess? The the unique messages of, like, what makes you different than another person out there teaching piano?

Jacques Hopkins [00:09:58]:

Yeah. I I think I really think everybody should have, their own unique, kind of special sauce. So, here where I live in Louisiana, we have, this fast food chain, that started here and it's it's growing it's one of the fastest growing fast food chains. It's called, Raisin Canes. Have you heard of it? Chicken fingers. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:18]:

Yeah.

Jacques Hopkins [00:10:18]:

They're so good. I I it's it's nothing nothing about it is healthy. It's it's kind of a guilty pleasure. But they their menu is extremely limited. They have chicken fingers. They have French fries. They have toast. They have drinks.

Jacques Hopkins [00:10:34]:

But you can get chicken fingers anywhere. Right? I was a couple years ago, we were, we spent a few months in France in a really small town, and then we we bite to a neighboring town was even smaller, itty bitty town because they had an amazing beach. And we're at this beach kind of in the middle of nowhere, and they have this little, this little hut with food and drinks. So we're in the middle of nowhere in in Europe, at the beach and one of the they had a very limited menu, but on the menu they had chicken fingers. My point is, like, you can get chicken fingers anywhere. Right? So why is Raising Cane's one of the fastest growing fast food chains, in the world? It's because they're sauce. They have this this sauce. That's why everybody goes there is because everything you get there, you dip it in the sauce and and it's I've tried to make it myself.

Jacques Hopkins [00:11:24]:

You it's hard to replicate. Other restaurants have it replicated. And so that's the reason that you go to, Raisin Canes is for their special sauce, not necessarily for the chicken fingers because you can get those everywhere. So when we're creating marketing channels, content marketing channels, online courses, we don't want to just be generic. We don't want to just teach piano just like everybody else. You've got to have some kind of special sauce. And for me, my story plays into that and really resonates with people because I took piano lessons as a kid for 12 years. I'm not naturally musical at all.

Jacques Hopkins [00:11:58]:

I'm very left brained. You mentioned already I was an engineer for 8 years before this, allowed me to quit. And, and so I never practiced. I never really loved it. I was just kind of a good kid and wanted to make my parents happy. They wanted me in piano lessons, so I took it. But after 12 years in piano lessons, I literally could play 2 songs on the piano. And, and I'd kind of discovered a different way, to to to learn and play songs on the piano using more of a guitar approach, like with with guitar chords and improvisation rather than she music, not playing by ear.

Jacques Hopkins [00:12:32]:

And so I actually started once I learned that, I started enjoying piano for the really the first time in my life. And several years later, I, when I was trying to start some sort of online business, I thought that might be my ticket because I had this kind of special sauce on how to play songs on the piano, quickly. And, and so that's that's what I recommend people have is something like that to to stand out.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:57]:

Yeah. I think that's great, and that's such a powerful point too because it also not only highlights, like, what makes you different and how that's important. Like, I love online courses not only because you can start it without, like, having to pay somebody a bunch of money to, like, develop software or or buy, like, expensive, like, product that you have to have manufactured. You can pretty much do it for free. But, also, like, you have basically no competition because nobody is you. So nobody can exactly sell the same product that you're selling. Where if somebody's on Amazon and you order some product from Alibaba, you might be selling the exact same thing that a 100 other people are selling. It's really hard to differentiate on that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:38]:

And so it's hard to have that the special sauce as you're saying. But with the the course, not only can can you have that and you can share that and it's valuable, but I think it also points to what you get to choose when you create the content. So I'm thinking about this. I'm a guitar player, and I think my approach to learning guitar has been maybe similar, maybe different in some ways, but I also not was not a fan of sheet music or, like, traditional music theory. Eventually, I learned that, but I just wanted to to learn how to play things. And more than playing other songs, I would play things I made up in my head. And I would make something up that sounds cool, and then I would kinda try to write my own songs. And I could see creators out there who would say, okay.

Bryan McAnulty [00:14:22]:

Well, if that's me, I can't make a course because people wanna learn the music theory. They wanna learn all that. And I'm I don't really I'm not into that. I don't know that very well. I shouldn't teach that. But if I was gonna make a guitar course, I would teach it exactly the way that I wanted to learn it, and that that I did it because there will be other people that that will resonate with. And so, as a creator, you don't have to feel that you know it exactly some certain way. You can teach it the way that that you know it and that you experience it, and that will be valuable.

Jacques Hopkins [00:14:54]:

I'm I'm glad you brought that up, Brian, because you as the creator, like, you and your story can kinda be the special sauce, but I like for people to have, like, a a key and core framework that they're teaching as well that you're not really gonna find anywhere else. And that that really the importance of that really was highlighted for me when I was at a a big marketing conference a few years ago. I know you you run your own SaaS product. I'm not on this platform anymore, but at the time, ClickFunnels, I'm sure you've heard of it. They do a massive event every year, Russell Brunson and whatnot. And I went to the event. It was I the reason I went was it was, I'd I'd done the the the $1,000,000 from a funnel thing, and I got to go on stage and get my my plaque. You can't see it on camera now.

Jacques Hopkins [00:15:44]:

It's back here and get my picture with Russell Brunson and everything. But it was it was a great event. Tony Robbins was there, lots of speakers. But as I'm listening to all the speakers, I noticed a common thread with every single presentation that people gave even and Russell Brunson came out, like, every other every other speaker was Russell Brunson coming out teaching something. Everybody had a framework to to share. And I realized, this was a few years ago, that that's one of the things that has made piano in 21 days successful is I have this core framework. It's called my 5 step song learning process that really were just like building up through the entire course on how to get better and better and better at that. And so by the end of the course, after the 21 days, they have this amazing tool, this amazing framework that they can go off and apply to new songs on their own.

Jacques Hopkins [00:16:32]:

They gotta follow these 5 steps. Now it takes the whole course to really understand how to apply those 5 steps, but, I I share the 5 steps in you on YouTube going back to the earlier the earlier conversation, but it really takes my course to to to really understand and really know how to apply it really well. And I realized that that's one of the main things that was holding me back in my second brand, for helping people with online courses was I didn't have any frameworks like that. Yeah. I had me and my story and that was helpful, but I didn't have any like core frameworks to work people through. And it was that day that I really developed, my core framework that I teach now called the online course business formula. And that's been a total game changer. So I recommend people really hone in on their special sauce from those two angles in terms of really your your story and your uniqueness, but then also some special framework that you can share with people.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. So you mentioned earlier, and and I mentioned in the intro, you were an engineer. I'm curious, and I think others would be curious as well. Like, where was the moment when you realized you wanted to start your own business and you decided to kinda pursue online course creation?

Jacques Hopkins [00:17:46]:

You ever heard of the this this really not well known book called the 4 hour work week?

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:52]:

Yep.

Jacques Hopkins [00:17:52]:

I I'm obviously joking. I think everybody's heard of it at this point. I was a senior in college, getting my degree in electrical engineering, and I don't even know why I picked up a book like that because I was all in on the on the, traditional path. I've always wanted to be an engineer since kindergarten and, you know, I was pretty good at math and, but I read that book and it for the first time reading that made me want to be an entrepreneur because of the things Tim Ferris was able to experience because of his business. Just like all the adventures and living in Buenos Aires and dance competitions and and martial arts competitions and riding motorcycles and all the cool things that the way he set up his business allowed him to do. Up until that point, I wasn't drawn to entrepreneurship because it seemed, it seemed like a lot of work. It seemed like you needed a lot of money, like funding or debt. It seemed like it required a brick and mortar presence.

Jacques Hopkins [00:18:55]:

And so I just, I kinda learned about like online business and that being an entrepreneur didn't have to mean all those things. It was a total paradigm shift for me reading that book. And I already had my job lined up and everything, But ever since reading that, I wanted that. I wanted that lifestyle, that lifestyle business. So that was certainly the moment. It wasn't easy. I tried a lot of different things. You know, he didn't I don't think he specifically mentions like online courses in that book.

Jacques Hopkins [00:19:23]:

So I think actually creating an online course business was probably the 7th different idea that I I tried to start, but the first one that even made a dollar. I tried I tried a bunch of different things trying to set up some some sort of lifestyle business, and an online course business is the one that ultimately worked for me several years later.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean, I had a similar experiences from 4 Hour Workweek, like, I'm sure many other others have. For me, the the biggest thing about it, like, I I already had by that point decided, okay. I'm I'm starting my own business. I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. But the idea of, oh, I can have these experiences and travel the world and all that, it was something that, okay, that that seems interesting, but it didn't click for me yet until I read that book.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:09]:

And then I saw, like, oh, this is possible. And sometimes I think you don't need to even be told how to do it. You just have to see that it's possible from somebody else, and then that's that's really all you need to get going with it. And I, like you, also tried all kinds of different businesses, and we're both here today involved in online courses. I think that there's a lot of people out there who would tell you, oh, you gotta focus. You just gotta focus on this one thing. You just gotta keep doing that. But I do think there's a lot of value in especially beginning creators and entrepreneurs and trying those different businesses.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:43]:

And it's not just about, like, finding out what you make money with, but finding out what works for you and what you enjoy. And in the in the space of online courses, it's so neat that it's not just courses. Like, you can have coaching programs or communities, courses, memberships, all these different business models of how you can structure it. And so even if one doesn't necessarily fit the way that you wanna teach or or sell or create a product, then maybe another one does.

Jacques Hopkins [00:21:12]:

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It's it's really, you know, we we often just talk about courses, but there's so many options here and it's all it's all various digital products. And, you know, I I definitely recommend people start maybe more on the coaching side, even 1 on 1 coaching if they wanna get into this and help people get those wins because it's one thing for you to experience, something for yourself. Like, oh, I learned, you know, I learned how to play piano this way and it worked for me. Or, I know I I taught my kid to read this way, but that's one example. Right? So if you can start, start slow and actually get results for other people and work with them intimately, you'll learn so much about other people as well.

Jacques Hopkins [00:21:52]:

And so you can start with a 1 on 1. You can do group coaching and eventually get to a more passive approach with, with a course or a membership.

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:01]:

Yeah. What about for the person listening to this right now and they're saying, okay. Like, Jacques, Brian, like, Jacques just talked about starting 6 different things before he even got to online courses. Like, how do you find the motivation to continue with that if you you have these different things that you're trying and it's not quite working out the way that you want?

Jacques Hopkins [00:22:21]:

Oh, good question, man. Well, I'd be be curious to hear what you think about it. Like, for me, it was always just, like, eye on the prize type situation. Like, I saw what was possible. And then once I read that book, I started listening to podcasts and hearing other people, like, beyond just Tim Ferris experiencing these similar things where they had created more of a lifestyle business. So I knew it was possible. People were doing it, and it just felt like a matter of time before I figured I figured it out. You know? So it was just a matter of, of of remembering that it was possible and that if if other people could do it, why not me? Right? What what what about you, Brian? What's what's your answer to that?

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:06]:

Yeah. I think I've always had a a similar mindset that instead of thinking, well, I can't do this thing or or all the reasons why I can't, it's more from, like, looking at the standpoint of, like, well, why not? What what would really stop me from from doing this? And and realizing that if you think carefully about it, most of the reasons are more excuses than actual reasons. And so, you can go and do that thing. And, yeah, seeing that it's possible and I guess really having having a belief that it is in in myself and knowing also that I I do believe I can get there to that path. And, also, I think the the whole traveling the world thing, it's probably easier to see about that now. But, like, when when his book first came out, there was no, like, digital nomad as a term even. There's no Airbnb. And so then it was in maybe a little bit harder and more more eye opening for people to to see that he did that, but it's actually not expensive.

Bryan McAnulty [00:24:07]:

So especially if you live in, like, a a western country, it's actually possible you could go and travel, maybe even spend less money than you were at home. And so I think there's a lot of information out there online about how you can make it work and and have maybe smaller goals and things for yourself as you keep going with it. But I've always also had the approach of it's not about, like, how am I gonna, like, make the most money, but how am I gonna do the thing that is what I enjoy? And always, like, relentlessly focusing on that and thinking about, oh, well, this might make me more money, but I don't care. I see. It's gotta it can't pull me away from the lifestyle that I wanna wanna have. And as part of that lifestyle though, it is growing my business, and I realized that fulfillment in in myself as as a human is that continued progression and growth. And I tried the I tried the full, like, 4 hour work week around, 2017. Basically, it didn't work at all.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:09]:

Just had, like, the the income from my businesses that were still coming in and lived off that. And it was okay, but, definitely, there was a lack of fulfillment, and I wanted to build something else after that. And so I think most people's goal should be finding the thing that they would do and they would work on every single day, and they would work on that thing today and tomorrow regardless of what today's outcome was.

Jacques Hopkins [00:25:34]:

That's a solid answer too. You know what you're doing. Look, it it makes me also think of another angle to take with it too is it's this type of business we're talking about the the the downside and the risk is so low in general. Right? And so I think if, you know, I say I wanna be an entrepreneur and I go the the super traditional path where you're opening up some sort of storefront and you have inventory and you need funding or or, or you need to take out a lot of debt and it doesn't work out, that's, like, detrimental. And it may not it may make you not want to try a second thing. And sometime, you know, a lot of times the first the first thing you try isn't gonna work. And with, digital product based businesses, you just start putting yourself out there. You start putting out content, you start putting together a website.

Jacques Hopkins [00:26:28]:

You can keep the the cost very minimal. It's just mostly your time at the beginning. And, you know, I'm not saying there's no downside, no risk because it's you know, everybody's time is very precious and valuable. But I think that that should be motivating for people in that if it doesn't work out, you haven't wasted a lot of money. You've you've wasted quote unquote some time, but hopefully it's not actually wasted time because you've learned something and you can do that better for the next idea that you get.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and that's something that's so so neat about it. If you do enjoy it and just can constantly work at it and learn from what you're having mistakes with, like, it's it's the same for everybody. Like, nobody nobody, came to this and was like, I know everything I'm doing. Everybody's figuring out how's it go, and, yeah, you can keep trying things. And if you do, I'm happy to say, like, I've seen so many examples of people who do become successful with that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:27:24]:

So I think as long as you keep at it long enough, then you you're on a path to some kind of success. You don't have to build a $1,000,000,000 business or $10,000,000 business, a $4,000,000 business. It could be, like, they're just a business that's just enough to pay all your bills. Maybe it's a side hustle, maybe whatever, but there's something that you can build with that in in pretty much anything. So I I think one of the things that's interesting even to point out here is your online course is so successful. You've made over $4,000,000 in revenue from a piano course. And most of the time, I think people see or hear about this kind of result from a, like, the course that's teaching you how to make money or something like that rather than, like, a more artistic or, like, hobby based course. So what would you say in in your case was the biggest factor that contributed to the success of, like, the growth of the revenue to get it that big?

Jacques Hopkins [00:28:18]:

Starting early certainly helped. I started in 2013, but of course that's not, all there is to it because people are are very successful, starting more recent years as well. But I did start early, and it's just like just learning all the different pieces and parts of how how to do everything. Right? I didn't know anything about marketing and sales when I started. I was, you know, writing computer programs for my job. And so little little things like selling the dream outcome versus the information, right, not focusing on how many modules there are and how how many hours of content there are when we're trying to sell the course and really honing in on, on the outcome and transformation people can experience. And people do wanna learn piano and people struggle. They've tried different methods.

Jacques Hopkins [00:29:12]:

A lot of people have it on their bucket list, always wanted to learn. I didn't expect this when I started, but over, like, 80% of my audience is over 55 years old. So we have a much older audience. It's people that took piano lessons as a kid and, like, it didn't stick and they hate and they've always regretted that they can't actually play today or or they've just like always, it's just like I said, a bucket list item they've always wanted to learn how to play. And, so just, like, getting to know who my actual audience is and then be able to speak to them in a way that makes them want to, to work with me and buy my course and get that ultimate result they're looking for.

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:49]:

Yeah. That's great. And I see here so it looks like you are using an evergreen funnel kind of approach to sell your courses.

Jacques Hopkins [00:29:58]:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. On

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:00]:

this show, we've talked about, like, different creators having different kinds of funnels and and things that they like. I think all of them work in different ways. But for our listeners who are maybe either not familiar with this or just curious in in your particular preferences, Can you explain both what an evergreen funnel is and then how it's helping you with your core sales?

Jacques Hopkins [00:30:22]:

Yeah. That was that was one of the last, like, missing pieces for me in my business before it really started taking off. It took me several years to find any sort of success. I was about 3 years into the business and bringing in about $1,000 a month. Right? Still working my job about $1,000 a month, which was it was cool. Right? Like, being able to make money while I sleep and all that, it was amazing, but it wasn't what I was hoping for. And I was listening to a podcast one day where this guy was talking about his the success of his online course business and he talked mostly about his evergreen sales funnel. And look, I I didn't even really know what a funnel was.

Jacques Hopkins [00:31:03]:

This was I think 2016 and but but he here was a guy selling an online course using this funnel, and that podcast episode I listened to was amazing because he walked the listener through exactly, like, how his funnel worked, how it was all set up. And I I pretty much, like, listened to that episode several times and mimicked what he was saying. And implementing a sales funnel into my business without changing anything else, that's what took me from $1,000 a month to $10,000 a month. 10 x my business by having an evergreen funnel, a good one. So it's really powerful, And what it is, is a way to, sell to, like, people that are new to your world, and you've got to have some sort of evergreen urgency deadline built into it. So urgency is the is the main reason that a funnel will work so well is because something is going away. Something is going away. The 3 main types of urgency we can use for an online course business would be availability, meaning the entire offer goes away.

Jacques Hopkins [00:32:13]:

The second, form of urgency is a discount. The discount's going away. The third form is, some sort of bonuses going away. And you could possibly say there's a 4th if you wanna combine those in any way. Hey. This bonus and this discount are going away, something like that. And so at the time, the form of urgency I used because it's what this person recommended on the podcast was the availability approach. Don't make your course available all the time, only like within the funnel.

Jacques Hopkins [00:32:40]:

And so when people would come to my website and they would opt in for my lead magnet, they would start the funnel and then it would be, it was like a 10 or 12 day sequence, to where they could buy. And then the deadline came. And after that point they could no longer buy. They weren't able to buy. So the opportunity was going away. Now I've since switched that model to my preferred form of urgency, which is a discount. So now you can go to my website and actually buy the course right now if you wanted to, but if you're in the evergreen funnel, then you have an opportunity to buy the course at 20% off and that deadline when it goes away is is different for everybody because it's based on when you first opt into the funnel. So sometimes I'm not great at explaining things.

Jacques Hopkins [00:33:28]:

How was that? Does that make sense? Do you think that makes sense to your audience?

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:31]:

That's good. I think if you think about any other products that, like, you've purchased from the brand or that you see in your email lists, your your email inbox, things like this, there's always a reason that that brand has to think of or come up with for why you should buy it now. And urgency is a really great one of those reasons. And, yeah, having that in a way can be really helpful not only to get you the sales because it it pushes the potential prospect over the edge of actually buying it, but it also kinda helps people get out of their own way. Because if they really do wanna learn from you, there are some people that are probably putting it off and say, oh, I'd really like to take that piano course. Then they forget about it. Life happens, and they just don't enroll. But if you give them some reason with the urgency and say, hey.

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:19]:

You can't enroll after this period or you're gonna the discount's gonna go away after this period, then people will have a stronger reason to say, like, okay. This is why this has to be, like, top of my mind right now that I've gotta go and join it at this moment.

Jacques Hopkins [00:34:34]:

So yeah. And it only works if you've got a great product that actually helps people. Right? We're not trying to dupe people in any way. Like you said, we've gotta give them a reason to buy now because we know how amazing our product is and how much it's going to help them. And when my form of urgency was availability, there it always made me feel a little uneasy where, like, a digital product was, like, not available. You know what I mean? And I would like, every now and then, I get a an email from somebody who who saw through it and it's like, what are you what are you talking about? It's it's not available. Like, it's it's a digital product. And so I feel that's why I feel so much better just, like, from an authenticity standpoint with a discount going away because that's I mean, companies run discounts.

Jacques Hopkins [00:35:17]:

That's that's a very normal way to do urgency. You go go to go to the store or the clothing store, like, they're running a limited time sale. You can get products at a discount discounted price. Where you very we're very used to that. So I no longer get those messages. I kept my funnel otherwise the same. It's just that I'm promoting a 20% off versus the whole offer is going away.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I hate seeing, like, those, the fake, like, countdown timers and things that you go to a site, there's a countdown, but then, like, you go back to the page and now the countdown refreshed itself. It's No.

Jacques Hopkins [00:35:48]:

No. No. It's gotta be real. If you if you say if you say it's going away, it needs to actually go away. That's my that's my opinion.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:55]:

It can be fake and and it'll even work for you if it's fake, but just to feel better about about yourself, and and there's going to be, like you said, some people that see through it. So I think it helps your audience when you can really just be real about it. And they they know you're not trying to trick them in any way. So, yeah, I would always be authentic about having real urgency. But I think there's a way you can still use availability urgency and have it be real. So, like, there's some cases where you have this, like, really interactive course where people like, you gotta have a lot of interaction with all the students. And if it was truly evergreen that people could enroll anytime, it kinda becomes just too hard to manage once you get to a certain scale. But if you could do something and say, like, okay.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:39]:

We're gonna launch in the spring and then the summer and then fall and have these different periods that people can enroll, then you're doing that. Not only does it add some urgency in that way, but it's real because then you can help everybody through at the same time. And when you get a message from somebody, it's not like, oh, where is this person even at in my course? You know that they're on, like, the 2nd week because it just launched again this spring. And so, yeah, that's that's a a way to do it as well. So I've got another question. Curious if you could pick one thing of somebody starting out with their online course. What's one piece of advice you wish you knew earlier on in your journey?

Jacques Hopkins [00:37:25]:

One piece of advice. Okay. How about this? You're gonna get haters. You're gonna get haters. I, I heard a quote, the only the only surefire way to not get attacked is to not is to do nothing important. Right? And, so if you can, like because when I first, like, you know, the the response has always been mostly positive, but there's certainly, like, you know, you know, who's really mean to me is is, like, normal piano teachers. Right? Because it's like, who's this guy coming in saying you can teach in just 21 days? Like, they're like, oh, it takes a lifetime to learn piano. This is rubbish.

Jacques Hopkins [00:38:09]:

And so, you know, you gotta have thick skin because, because if you're if you're doing something important and you're, you're putting yourself out there, there's there's always gonna be mean people out there. And you just like, if I could just like let you know at the beginning, like, it's gonna happen. And guess what? If it happens, that's actually a good thing unless a 100% of the comments are negative. That's probably a bad thing, but it's look at it as a good thing because that means you're actually your message is getting out there. People are seeing it. And like I said, the only surefire way to not get attacked is to do nothing important.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:44]:

Yeah. Yeah. And if you have if you try so hard to make your message one that, no one will criticize, you're then no one will criticize it because you're not going to get any attention around it. So it's a it's a sign that, yeah, you're getting seen. And, you know, no matter what you wanna try to do, once you really get get out there and and people do see it, you're you're going to get the haters. Like, I I have examples of where I've I've literally given something away completely for free. And it wasn't like, oh, if you get this free and then you're in my funnel, now you can buy the course. Like, no.

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:20]:

I'm just giving it to you for free because maybe you will get to know the brand and, like, we have a software so you can you can buy our software eventually. But there's no, like, paid upgrade version to a course or something. It's just free content. And I remember having people comment on it and say, like, I don't believe you. I said, well, I'll give it to you. Like, just let me DM you right now. You don't even have to give me your email. I will just give it to you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:45]:

But it it will happen. So, yeah, I think it's it's good to become comfortable with that, and it's something that you just have to do over time. And, the more you experience it, you'll start to realize, oh, there's there's going to be haters. And, and you can, it's it's annoying, but you get to, deal with it better.

Jacques Hopkins [00:40:05]:

Yeah. And my best tip is, like, to deal with it too is is make sure you're saving the positive comments too because that's that's what really keeps me going is the positive comments. So certainly, like, if people provide you, like, video testimonials and all that, that's great. But also the little comments people leave you on social media or YouTube that are positive, save those. My assistant always saves those for for me in a folder and I like, if I if I'm feeling down or, like, I get, more negative comments than normal, I can always refer back to that and be like, oh, yeah. Like, what I'm doing matters. It's helping people and that helps you to keep going.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes the the hateful comments, like, they're also not directly about you but about, like, that person's actual interferes or worries or doubts. Like, they actually want your help. And I've also had experiences where there was, like, a hater that turns into an amazing customer, and they really love you. But they they had their own concerns and things in the beginning, and so they weren't sure what to think. So, yeah, I think that that can definitely be the case too. I've got one more question for you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:11]:

And on the show, we like to have every guest ask a question to the audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether it's something you're curious about, something you wanna get people thinking about, what would that be?

Jacques Hopkins [00:41:24]:

There's a question I like to ask my my clients from time to time that I think can can be really helpful, can be really powerful. And so think of this, and this is more for people that have already gotten started. It's like if a new like, as the as the creator here, you are the CEO of your company. Right? And so if a new CEO were to come in and, like, replace you in your business, what would be the next, like, three steps that they would take in order to grow your business? And that question is really powerful because, you know, I could I could also say, hey, you you, what what are the next three steps you think you should take? But when you think about it from another perspective, you're thinking about, oh, okay. Somebody else came in that knew what they were doing, then they would do they would probably do this and they would do that. It gets you thinking about things in a way that you wouldn't think of otherwise. So that would be my challenge is think about if somebody else were coming in to be the CEO of the company of your company, what would be the next three steps they would take to grow?

Bryan McAnulty [00:42:28]:

Yeah. I I love that because I think for many creators, there's gonna be something that for some reason you have an excuse that you're not doing it, but you know deep down that that's a thing you should do. And or maybe you're not even thinking about it. But having that framing will kinda uncover that for you.

Jacques Hopkins [00:42:47]:

Yeah. I can uncover things that either you hadn't thought of or that you didn't, like, you you kind of pushed it aside because you're, like, well, I I couldn't do that. But it's, like, why not? If somebody else can come in and do that, why can't you?

Bryan McAnulty [00:43:00]:

Yeah. Exactly. Alright. Awesome. Well, Jacques, thanks so much for coming on the show. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Jacques Hopkins [00:43:08]:

Cool. So piano in 21 days dot com. That's my piano stuff, piano in 21 days dot com. And then my other brand, is the online course guy dot com. So I've I've got, you know, training there about the online course business formula that I mentioned, but then, at the very least I've got a podcast too, the online course show. Probably very similar to this podcast. I interview other course creators and just kind of dive into their stories and find out what's made them successful in all kinds of different niches. So that's once again the online course show.

Bryan McAnulty [00:43:42]:

Alright. Awesome. Thanks so much.

Jacques Hopkins [00:43:44]:

And most recently featuring the one and only Brian McAnulty.

Bryan McAnulty [00:43:48]:

Yeah. Definitely. Go check out, that episode if you want to learn a little bit about me more as well. I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 creators at creatorclimb.com. If you enjoyed this episode and wanna hear more, check out the Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9 AM US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our newsletter at thecreatorsadventure.com. Until then, keep learning, and I'll see you in the next episode.