Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the creator's adventure, where we interview creators from around the world hearing their stories about growing a business. As a creator, sometimes the path to grow is right there in the data and the numbers. But often, you enjoy creating and don't take the time to look at those numbers. Today's guest John Ainsworth is going to show us the important numbers to measure and how he's used his process to earn creators millions. Hey, everyone. I'm Brian McInulty, the founder of heights platform. Let's get into it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:33]:

Hey, everyone. We're here today with John Ainsworth. John is the founder and CEO at data driven marketing. They help online course creators to increase their revenue by hundred and 86 percent through strategic funnel optimization. He's been building funnels for 20 years and is a digital nomad much of the time. And, actually, John, I was on your podcast yesterday, so now I get to talk with you here. I'm looking forward to getting to know you a little bit better. Welcome to the show.

John Ainsworth [00:01:03]:

Thanks very much, man. Really appreciate the chance to come and talk to your audience.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:07]:

Yeah. Maybe interested to to talk a little bit about the the travel as well because I'm I'm really into that. I know yesterday you mentioned that you'd visited Austin in the past. Kinda curious where else you've been. But I guess my first question for you is, would you say is the biggest thing that either you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do the things that you enjoy?

John Ainsworth [00:01:34]:

So for me, there's this there's been a couple of things. Right? So there's a book called Traction by Gino Wickman, and it's about how do you run a business to make everything run really, really smoothly. And that's been the biggest thing I would say. So I read that for the first time maybe 5 years ago. And it was very clear to me that if you followed all the processes they had there about the kinds of people you hired, the way you ran your meetings, how you tracked all the data in your business, how you made sure that your marketing was working efficiently. If you did all of those things, it was pretty clear to me that business would run really smoothly. But it was also really obvious. That was really hard. It was gonna take a lot of work to implement it. So what I've done is every 3 months, once a quarter. I go through, and I there's a test in the book. And I take the test, and I find where are we the worst. Where's the 1 place that we're doing the worst? And then I implement I improve that over the next few months. And so we've gone from the the scores out of a hundred. And the first time I took it, I got, like, 23. I was like, that's depressing. And then but we're now about I think it's like an 87 or a 90 or some something in that kind of ballpark. And everything then runs really, really smoothly. The other thing that was really big for me was getting out of delivery side of the business because that's a lot of people start the kind of business like like I do. You know, we help on my course creators with their funnels. A lot of people start a business doing something that they are good at doing, and then they get stuck in doing it all the time, and they can never get out of it. And they're basically building a team around themselves and making themselves a superhero. And I decided really early on, I had some I've gone through 3 training courses about running this kind of a business. And they all said you need to get out of doing the delivery. You gotta hire people, train them up, and it's going to be really fun because I won't be as good as you because you've spent years getting good at this thing, but you've gotta do that if you really wanna be able to move forward. And so I spent the first couple of years, like, building up the team, training people, developing systems, what have you. And that means that now I don't work as many hours. You know, now I can work less hours and everything runs really smoothly and everything's really efficient and the team's amazing and the whole thing runs beautifully. But that wasn't easy. You know? It was kind of a go slow to go fast later kind of thing. Yeah. Definitely.

Bryan McAnulty [00:04:04]:

No. I I agree with that, and I've had similar experiences myself. And, like, I think it's so hard for business owners, entrepreneurs, because you you're you're in the trenches there in that delivery portion of of your business. Right? And in in that time when you don't have the the team around you to kind of help facilitate that, the way for the business to go smoothly means that you put in more hours to be able to deliver in the right way depending on what's going on. And so yeah. And then you're not able to work on kind of big picture things and, like, how can you create better products, better service overall because you're so stuck in the delivery spot. So that's really interesting. I I'm curious more about I've heard of the book traction, but I'm not familiar with that test. Is it something that you can, like, describe

John Ainsworth [00:04:56]:

briefly in more detail, or do we really have to, like, go into the book to understand? No. No. No. Like, I'll I'll I'll put it up on my computer here, and I'll tell you, like, what something kinda headings up. There's basically 6 main areas in the book that they go through. Processes, data. Let's think the other one's people. I'm pulling it up now. See if the see if the test is done. A vision, that's another 1. What else is the finances? I think it's 1 part of it, and then there's 1 more that I I'm not remembering right now. Oh, I think the other 1 that's called traction, and it's about, like, having the right kind of meetings in place. So with vision, it's about like, okay. If you've got anything past you, then nobody else is gonna understand the vision as clearly as you are because it's in your head. So you have to explain it to the whole team really clearly. You have to be able to say, right. This is what we stand for as a business. This is what we're trying to achieve. This is our values. This is our focus. This is our long term vision. This is our target audience. This is what's different about our business. Write it down and then go over with people again and again and again. So in our business, we do it in our team call. Every single week, I'll get somebody else on the team to explain 1 of our core values. Like so our core values are excellence, honesty, and growth. And so it's like, get somebody in the team to explain, okay, why is it and what does that mean, and how did you implement that last week? How are you actually implementing that value within the business? What are we doing? What's the vision? Where are we planning on being in a year, 3 years' time? Why are we working on what we're working on now, and how's that gonna help us get the vision so that everyone super clear on that. The processes side of it is, like, have you got standard operating procedures for every single thing in the business? Is there a process for exactly how you do each single thing that anybody in the business starts. Does it make sense? Is it clear? Is it accurate? Is it done the same by every person in in the team? The team side of things is about making sure you know exactly what your job, your org chart, your organizational chart looks like now, but also what you wanted to look like in 6 months And are you hiring against that? And are the people that you've got the right fit for all of those jobs? And are the right are the jobs that you've got at the moment the right fit for what you need to be in 6 months? Are you having weekly meetings with the whole team? Are you having weekly meetings with each person individually? Are you making sure that everyone's on track with what they're supposed to be doing and they're reaching the right standards? Have you got data about, like, exactly how everything in your whole business is working as you, you know, all of your key leading and lagging KPIs, you know, what are the things that you're working if you see something's not working in advance, You can fix it. And can you look at your finances and go, we can check that we can see that everything worked the way it was supposed to afterwards. So that's the kinds of thing which is posted up in place, which is like all very reasonable and sensible, and they're not easy.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:57]:

You know? You've taken a lot of work together. Definitely. I I do think think think, think, think, think, think, most businesses, like, not just, like, an individual course creator starting out, but, like, even established businesses are missing a lot of those things, which, again, like, it's very reasonable to have. But, like and and important, and it's not not even that complicated, but yeah, going through that, I think, is sounds like a a great exercise. So can you share more of, like, what's the story of how you started your company? Data driven model?

John Ainsworth [00:08:29]:

So what I used to do is I worked in fitness marketing, and I would do kind of a mix of 2 things. I would work with private companies, you know, gyms, yoga studios, martial arts classes, kind of thing. And I'd also work with local government to help get people from hard to reach groups into activity like over 60 fives, disabled people, cancer patients, this kind of thing. And I got really, really good at it. And then what happened was with both of them, we could fill them up really quickly. So let's say Jim would hire us. We'd run some marketing for them. We'd build them a a front end funnel. We'd run some promotion for it. The gym would be full, and then they wouldn't need us anymore. And I was just like, okay. I've got 2 options here. I could do the job worse so that they carry on leading me over time. Or I could go find someone who's got more capacity because there's something this isn't really working for me here. So about 5 years ago, I switched industries, and I was like, right. I wanna work online completely. I wanna work with people who where I they're not gonna expect me to go into any meetings. And I wanna work with people who've got unlimited capacity. And I found a few different niches. I found ecommerce, which is maybe not unlimited capacity, but very high. SaaS or software businesses, and then online course creators. Those are kind of the 3 that I I worked on. We did funnels for each of them for about a year. And what I found was online course creators just somehow seem to be the right, the best kind of fit. I used to get the best results for them. And they also were just really great people to work with. It tends to be that online course creators are someone who is an expert in a topic loves that topic. If they've managed to build up an audience, we work with people who've already got an audience to our YouTube channel or or or decent website traffic, that kind of thing. It means that they've been sharing all this information for a long time. They're they've built up this audience. They've got these great courses, but they just don't most of them don't know how to do the bit that we don't know how do you get the more of the audience to buy the courses, which is the part that we help with, you know, so email marketing and funnels. And So that was a really good fit. And so I niched down, like, 4 years ago to just working with that with that audience, and then we've just been refining and improving since then.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:54]:

Awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, as the name suggests, like, your approach is is very data driven. So can you explain Like, what would you say are the key, like, data and and KPIs that online course creators should focus on in their business?

John Ainsworth [00:11:11]:

Yeah. So I can say it really clearly within within the funnels part of it because that's the stuff that we're tracking all the time. So there are 3 main areas that people need to be able to improve. That's what we generally see. 1 is, how do you get more of your audience to get onto your email list? Because most people are very bad at that. Let's say you've got a big YouTube audience you need to get those people onto an email list if you want them to buy a courses, really. Second thing is what percentage of those people who are on your email list are then buying stuff from you every month? And the third 1 is, like, what's your revenue per sale? How do you how high is your revenue per sale? So the kind of KPIs we're looking at tracking there are what's the conversion percentage from every month, from your YouTube or your Instagram or whatever onto your email list. And if you want to have benchmark data for any of this, tell me because I can I can share all of that? Then every month, what we're looking for is no 0.5 percent of your email list to buy your courses. That's the that's the next step. So, like, when you send out an email promotion, Are you getting naught 0.5 percent of people buying every month from you? And that, you can break down to a few steps. So first, or what percentage of people opened your emails, then what percentage clicked through to the website to the sales page, then how many people you got at the sales page, click through the checkout page, then of those 2 people who got the checkout page, how many actually bought. So you're tracking each step there. Yep. And this is like a crucial part of the way that that tracking this kind of data works is you don't wanna just track how much money did I make. You wanna track each step throughout the process. And then you look at benchmarks, then you go, where am I a long way from the benchmark? Because that means you've got an area that you need to improve a lot. And you work on 1 step and you improve it, and then you find another step and you improve that. And then in terms of the revenue per sale, what you're looking at is how many people are buying the upsells from you as well because you've got something that they buy from you. Or an upsell, which I know you you do in heights platform, is something else that they can buy after they've finished the purchase. So there's an additional offer, and that increases the revenue per sale. So that's the the third part, what percentage of people would buy that. Like, would it be useful to go through what good benchmarks are for that, or is that too much detail?

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:29]:

Yeah. I guess before that, I would just say that I think it's interesting that most of our audience, at least, I would guess that they're not nearly as data driven as you are. And they're they're more of a sense. Yes. Yeah. So I think they're they're more on the creation side. And was talking with you real briefly before we started recording is that, like, from a product design design standpoint, like, I've had to become more and more data driven and understanding, like, Well well, what are the actual metrics? Because the the metrics reveal the answer of what you should do next. And I wanna touch on the point that you made of, like, not just tracking, okay, how much revenue did I make from x promotion that I did, but all the different steps in the way because instead of then next month saying, oh, I wanna do better. I'm I'm just gonna do more of something. You don't really have the answer of what you have to improve. If you're not looking at all the different numbers along the way. And so it doesn't have to be, like, it's not incredibly complicated math or anything like that, but it's just looking at that information to see, like, okay. Well, are they actually on my email list? Are they actually if they're on my email list, when they're at the checkout, like, are they buying at the checkout as often as they should be, And and being able to dissect it there to know what you have to improve, I think, is super important. So With that said, yeah, let's go into, like, what what would you say are some some average metrics that readers should aim for?

John Ainsworth [00:15:00]:

Yeah. So when you're looking at website traffic getting onto your email list, you should ideally be somewhere around 2 to 3 percent. So of monthly website visitors, 2 to 3 percent of them should opt into your email list. So most people are at about a naught 0.5 percent. So there's normally massive improvements to make here. If you're looking at YouTube and how many people from your YouTube audience opt in, then you're looking at about 0.8 percent is a good benchmark to reach 0.5 to 0.8 percent. And that based on monthly video views, not subscribers, because the difference between subscribers and users can be it could be up or down. Either way, it depends on how your audience interacts with your videos. If you're looking at Instagram or Facebook, it's it's a bit lower. It's about naught 0.5 percent of your of your subscribers is the way we normally look at that 1. And then Pinterest is really hard to tell. It's tricky with that 1. So that's in terms of getting people onto your email list. Once you have somebody on the email list, how many of them are gonna be buying from you? Like I said, we're looking at about a naught it's naught 0.3 percent, naught 0.2 to naught 0.3 percent per email promotion, and we recommend doing 2 email promotions per month. So, therefore, that adds up to naught 0.4, not 0.5 percent per month of people who are gonna be buying from you. But if we break that down into smaller steps in terms of what the actual conversion rates are. We're looking at about the checkout page. You want to be at about 08:12 to 18 percent conversion rate. So of people who get to the checkout page, 12 to 18 percent of them actually buying, most people that doesn't sound very high, but most people are at about 5 to maybe 10 percent. So in the moment, most people are losing the vast majority of people when they get to the checkout page. The the step before that, you're looking at about 20 ish percent of people who get through to the sales page who then would go to the checkout page. So you're ideally looking for about a 20 percent conversion rate at that step. In terms of click through rate, we're looking for about 3 percent of the overall number of people who who open the email to be sorry, who get the email to be then clicking through. And with open rates, we're looking at about 20 to 30 percent that's kind of those stages. With the upsell, you're ideally looking for about 10 to 20 percent of people who buy the product to then buy the upsell as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:59]:

Yeah. Got it. That's really helpful. I think that 1 other point I wanted to mention about the upsell is we we've talked with a couple guests on here before where the upsell is really powerful as, like, 1 of the the points you mentioned was how can you increase the the average order value. Right? So not just improving the conversion rates, but then improving that average order value. And with the upsell, is oftentimes that the person will buy the main product or or what it is you're selling. Like, let's say that you're selling something that's a cheaper product and upsell is the more expensive product. There's a lot of times when you may not expect it, but your prospect or the customer, they're ready to buy everything from you right then. So -- Mhmm. -- why not offer it to them? And the upsell is a way of doing it that if somebody's ready to go and buy your flagship product, you can have them go ahead and do it right then instead of having to wait for that next month or a couple months when you go and promote it.

John Ainsworth [00:19:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of people. It's it's the they're in the buying mode. You know? They've just -- Yeah. Yeah. They've got through to your you know, maybe they did a Google search, and they got through to your website, and then they saw your lead magnet, and they signed up to your email list, and then they the email from you, and they got through to the sales page, and they decided, yes. This is right for me. And they got through to the checkout page. They decided, yes. This is right for me. That's the time when they're most likely to buy anything else from you is right to them. So it's exactly the time to show them, well, this is the this is the next thing to get. And that upsell could be you know, you've got a basic and an intermediate course that by the basic, the upsell could be the intermediate, or maybe you've got a membership, and it's like, okay. It's you you're buying a monthly joint to upgrade to the annual, or you're buying, you know, a you got a challenge, and the upgrade could be by all of the year's You know, it's like just get the next the next logical step. That's kind of what the upsell offer is.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:00]:

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds good. Yeah. I would encourage anybody listening to this. So if you didn't already write down what John said about those those percentages. Go back, rewind, and write down those percentages, and then look at it for your own business. And I guess, like, really, the only couple tools you need to do that is kinda like looking at your email software, maybe the platform you're using, and then Google Analytics. Is that right? Like, at a minimum, I guess, if you wanna get started.

John Ainsworth [00:20:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. That would do you and write write it down in the spreadsheet. Sometimes people ask me, like, which which of the fancy pants tracking software should I go and use? This 1 claims it does everything, and this 1 claims it does everything as well. I was like, no. Just use just use your email marketing software, Google Analytics, and the spreadsheet, and you're good. You don't need you don't need anything more complicated than that. And I know some people really don't like spreadsheets. A lot of creators really don't like spreadsheets, but it's like, it's not that much work. You set this up with those headings that I just talked through. And every month, you go through and fill it in. And what you'll see, especially if you then also write down the benchmarks that I said instead in terms of what you should be expecting to achieve at each of those stages, you'll be able to look at that and go, oh, well, my checkout rate is way below that benchmark. Now let me go and, like, research how do you do a great checkout page, and then I can make those changes, and you'll see a massive increase in revenue. You know, we've seen people increase revenue like 3, 4 times just by changing their checkout pages.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I think, like, even even if you're not ready to to do it every month. And and like you said, the the spreadsheets sound annoying to you. Like, just doing it once, especially if you're more of a beginner creator. I think it can really be eye opening into seeing, like, what you actually have to work on. And I think for those starting out where your audience isn't that big yet, Often, you'll find out that maybe your numbers aren't as bad as you might have expected. It's just you need to get some more traffic in there. And and keep working on growing that audience.

John Ainsworth [00:22:11]:

Yeah. This stuff that I'm talking about, I think it only really starts to make sense to do a lot of work on it once you've got a reasonable sized audience. So, like, email list of a few thousand people, something like that. Before that, I'd focus more on, like, grow your audience, grow your email list. And then and then you can start to worry about the sales funnels later on.

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:32]:

Yeah. Definitely. I agree. So as I mentioned in your intro, your company helps increase their revenue by 486 percent So what would you say, like, attributes to achieving such a great results with your clients? Do you mean, like, what do we help our clients to do, or, like, how did we figure out kind of how to -- Yeah. Like, to to get to, like, a a an increase like that, like, Is there something I I know, like, you help with everything, but is there something you would say, like, stands out as this is the usually the biggest driver for most people, or does it really vary?

John Ainsworth [00:23:10]:

Yeah. So there's there's 8 steps altogether, and it comes on those 3 headings I mentioned before. So it's How do you get a bigger convert more of your email audience into your email list? How do you run effective email promotions every month so that more people are buying from you? And how do you increase the revenue per sale. And so it's those 3 things. And within those, there are a thousand different ways that you can do those things. There's a thousand ways you could run more promotion, and you can build webinar funnels, and you can have automated evergreen funnels, and you can build sideways sales letters, and video sales letters, and all kinds of clever stuff. From all the different marketing gurus. And what we did is we we didn't know when we started out specifically working with course creators which of those were the best ones. So what we did is we spent 2 years when we tested every tactic from every single you know, from Frank Kern and Ryan Dice and all kinds different all kinds different marketing experts, Russell Brunson, what have you. And we tracked for each of them. How long did it take to do it? And what result did it bring in? So what was the effort to reward ratio? And we also looked at did it work for everybody, or was it only working for people that we worked with. And what we found was that there were these 8 tactics that worked for everybody were easy to do relatively and always got always brought results in, got a good amount of results in. And so those those 3 headings kinda covers what those are. But for the starting point, the easiest 1 to do is the upsells. Like, that's where you start with. It's it's easier to you can increase revenue by putting up sales in place by 10 to 20 percent just from doing that. That's what we've seen on average. The other 1, if if you're using software that's got it, that also does the same thing as order bumps. That's another another tactic that also has the same kind of impact as well. And that's instead of it being the product on the confirmation page, it's something on the checkout page. People get very confused between the difference of them, but That's the that's the basic idea. Order bumpers are something extra you sell on the checkout page. Upsell is something extra you sell. After they've checked out on the confirmation page. So those are the first things to do. And if you haven't got those in place, then you just go set those up. The other tactics that we found under the heading of how do you increase the number of sales per month is run really good email promotions every month to people. And the problem most people have here is that don't want to run regular email promotions because they think they'll be super sales y. So we teach our audience, like, how can you send email promotions that are not annoying, that are useful, that people want to receive it, that most of the content is valuable and useful, And then some of it is promotional so that the people who are ready to buy something from, you can go buy it, and you give them a discount. But the people who aren't ready are like, oh, these emails are brilliant. I love receiving these emails. I want down this email list. And so that's the that's a, like, a whole project in and of itself. That's what we work with a lot of our coaching clients, and I've done 4 year clients on is those email promotions every month. And then the next step after that is how do you write a great sales page. And the next step after that is how do you make a great checkout page. So, like, if you put those steps in place and they're not rocket science. Like, to make it it's it's time consuming, but, like, There's 15 elements, for example, on a on a great sales page, and most people are missing, like, 5 or 6 of them. So the first thing is you just go to input those 5 or 6 elements in. Things like testimonials, a compelling headline, frequently asked questions, information about the course creator explaining the course in detail, talking about the benefits of it. You know, it's just it's nothing that's completely revolutionary, but just people are missing them. They're missing the basics. You know? So that's kind of what we do to help people with that. And all of these things, the the 80 20, they're the thing that's the most straightforward in order to increase revenue out of everything you could do. So when you put all of those together, it adds up. And so we see kind of the range with most most people make between who who work with us. They somewhere between Dublin, Quenchy Pull, their revenue. We've got 1 person at the moment who was she's a hundred and 50 times her revenue. Well, not this last month, anyway. She made, like yeah. That's not that's not the standard, but it's like it's pretty cool to see. You know? She's making a lot.

Bryan McAnulty [00:27:49]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's 1 of the amazing things about creating a business like this and that, like, you have the potential for it to to scale to something like that. And you're not really limited as it's a digital product. You're not really limited by saying, like, oh, I well, I have to get enough stock in to ship, or I have to have enough people to deliver this. Like, when you when you get it working, like, that can just happen. Yes. There will be a little bit more support and stuff, but it's very possible for, like, an individual creator even to experience that even though it may be not the likely scenario.

John Ainsworth [00:28:29]:

Yeah. It was a lot of fun. She messaged me the other day. She said, John, so far this month, they've made 450000 dollars what is actually happening right now? I was like, that's cool. You know?

Bryan McAnulty [00:28:46]:

Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. So I I think also the the point you mentioned about the email think we can't get into that right now because as you said, like, there's a thousand things you can do to just improve your email sequences and and how you're doing that. But something I think that is maybe motivational for creators to hear is that just because your email list doesn't buy from you now, it doesn't mean that, like, they're never going to buy from you. Because the chances are, like, you have people on your email list that, like, as you said, like, they're join that content. If they're if they're on your email list, if they're not unsubscribing, if they're opening the emails, they're they're interested in something, and it doesn't mean it it could mean that there's things you have to optimize later on, but it doesn't necessarily mean that, like, your product is better. They don't want it. They're just not quite ready yet to buy. And so keeping them on there, growing that email list could it could be a year it could be 2 years later that then they say, you know what? I I keep seeing all this stuff from John or or whoever, I I'm ready now. I'm ready to make that decision. I gotta go and and purchase this course or this program. And and then they finally will go ahead and do that.

John Ainsworth [00:29:55]:

Yeah. Hundred percent.

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:58]:

Yeah. Alright. So, yeah, you have more than 20 years of experience total in this field. How do you see the online course creation industry evolving in the future And what trends do you believe we'll see going forward?

John Ainsworth [00:30:14]:

I mean, it's fascinating because it's a really fast growing market. Like, it's growing more than 20 percent a year. Like, I keep checking every couple of years, like, what the stats are on the on the space. Because it's it's good to be in an industry that's growing. You know? Like, I don't wanna go work in the newspaper industry or something like that. Right? So it's -- Yeah. -- a lot less fun. But online courses, it's like growing 20, 25 percent a year every year. So it's it's not going away. It doesn't seem to show any signs of of shrinking back down again. So I think it's a great space to be in. Some of the stuff that we're seeing is that it seems like growing a YouTube audience seems to be, like, 1 of the best ways to be able to grow a course business. And I got a couple of hypotheses about why that is. I don't know for definite these are right. 1 is YouTube's still a fast growing market. And if you building an audience through search engine optimization and website traffic through that is kinda gets harder and harder in YouTube even though it's not new, and it is much harder than it used to be. It still seems to be a a bigger opportunity kind of easier to do. Second part is people who watch videos from you are more likely to then want to watch to pay to watch more videos from you. And an online course is, you know, generally video content. So that seems to be a really good fit. And it seems to build up a really big, like, feeling that they know you kind of sense because someone's seen your face, like, in the videos a lot. Whereas and you do get some of that with, like, Instagram or Facebook because some of the contents video search engine optimization. If you're writing blog posts, people don't get it as much as much of a feeling from it. YouTube seems to work just really well, and podcasts is amazing for that as well. We see a really good conversion from podcasts to core sales. People really trust a podcast host. Like, I don't have people say to me, I've listened to every single episode of your podcast And I'm like, that's like I saw that's commitment. You know? That's like I don't know what it is. Like, 50 hours or something. Right? You know? Yeah. And I'm like and I'm pretty sure some of the early ones weren't that amazing. Like, I was getting the hang of doing it, and I was like, okay. How does this all work? You know? That's another really good 1. Podcast, good way of building the audience there as well. So that's some of the kind of trends that we're seeing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. Glad to hear that. I guess it it aligns with kinda what I was thinking that -- Yeah. -- I think YouTube has a real lot of potential, definitely. And I I think it's tough. It depends on who you are as a creator. It depends on your audience. But I think for some people, like, Instagram, like Facebook, even Twitter, it's gonna be harder for creators maybe than something like YouTube because, like, the impressions that you get on, like, a Instagram or TikTok reel or something, it's very, like, fleeting in that, like, somebody sees you, maybe they enjoy their content, and they swipe to the next 1, and they're they're already done. So they're they're not making that same, like, deep connection that they would with the YouTube video or with the podcast, where it's just, like, longer form content. And, also, like, while if you come up with something that that can kinda get viral and and hit the algorithm the right way that that's gonna benefit you on on Instagram or TikTok. Again, it's something where, like, it feels it feels hard to to grow that, like, fan base and that that deeper connection. So on YouTube, you you have the benefit of, like, people are directly searching for, like, I wanna learn about x, and then they can find you talking about that, teaching that, and saying, like, hey. If you wanna learn more, I've got this course. I've got this community. I've got this coaching program. And that is something where I guess, like, you can't really get that from, like, the algorithms on on Instagram and TikTok in the same way where it seems like as you grow as a YouTuber, like, the more you grow, then your videos would just get more and more views, and, like, it just continues to grow. And that can happen on Instagram and TikTok, but at the same time, like, there's things that just don't translate. Like, I remember, like, last year, 1 of our best Instagram reels, I think we had over 50000 views on it. I think we got, like, 1 follower from the 50000 views. I think I think we had 19000 likes -- Go. -- 19000 likes on The Real, and I think 1 follower. And so even even if you say, like, okay. People don't really follow you. They're going to like, but maybe they're watching my other content. Now they they know me. Like, they're still you you've gotta be able to argue that they're not as deeply connected as they would be if they're watching the podcast or your YouTube. So, yeah, definitely, I think YouTube is a a great thing to be on today. Cool. Alright. Well, on this show, we'd like to have every guest ask a question to our audience. So John, if you could ask our audience anything, whether it's something you kinda want them to just think about or it's something you're curious about, what would that be?

John Ainsworth [00:35:23]:

Here's what I want you to think about. What are you gonna set up as your upsell? And I'd love it if you post it in the the comments under the video if you if you're watching it on YouTube. Because this is, like, without a doubt, it's the simplest thing that you can do to increase your revenue. And if you've got you know, like, maybe if you've not got any audience at all or nobody's buying your courses yet, okay, maybe it's not the thing focus on. But if you've already making core sales, setting up your upsell is the thing that's gonna allow you to increase your revenue the most the most easily. And so what you need to do is choose something. And the mistake I see people make here is they're like, oh, I'm gonna wait until I come up. I can I have time to build the perfect product for the upsell? I was like, no. What do you got now that could be the upsell to your most to to your most popular thing that You've got something that's selling the most copies. What could be the upsell to that? And then just set that up, and that's going to give you the biggest increase the most easily. So that's my question to you. What is it gonna be?

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:31]:

Awesome. Yeah. I think that's a an excellent thing to think about. I would encourage everyone to definitely do that because I think creators tend to mistakenly have the feeling that, like, oh, somebody bought my product already, like, that's done with. Now I gotta find new people. But, like, the people who buy your products are your customers. So, like, if you have something else to sell, if you have a new product, the most likely person to buy that is actually the people who have bought from you before, not somebody new in your audience. And so don't don't feel that just because somebody is buying something right now or has bought something you before that means that they're they're done, they're not gonna buy again. It's a excellent thing, I think, to think about. John, it's great talking with you. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

John Ainsworth [00:37:18]:

Yeah. So you can check us out on our website, data driven marketing dot co. We've got our podcast, which is the art of selling online courses. And if you are someone who's doing 6 figures already and is interested in getting help with implementing this if you want my help with it. We work on a payment on results only basis, so people only pay us when they make any more money. We do, like, a paid audit as the first thing, but then after that, that's that's the ongoing way of working with us. And you can go and apply or find out if you're a good fit by going to pimp your funnel dot com. You fill that out and it's like a 10 question survey, and it's gonna tell you if you're a good fit or not to work with us. And if you're not a good fit, then we will still send you a free report where we're gonna tell you exactly what it is that you should do to increase the revenue in your business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:14]:

Awesome. Alright. Thanks so much, John.

John Ainsworth [00:38:17]:

Very much. Appreciate it.