Caitlin Bacher [00:00:00]:

Ask people that. They're like, oh, yeah. Well, everyone who doesn't buy just says, you know, it's too much money or I don't have enough time. I get that, but what's happening is your audience is saying that because they just don't wanna get into all the specifics. Now, of course, there's in some cases, like, it really is just out of their budget, and that's totally cool. But for a lot of people, they think, you know what? This sounds like it could work, but it's not gonna work for me because x, y, or z. And the only way you're gonna figure out what those x, y, or z things are

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:29]:

Welcome to the creator's adventure, where we interview creators from around the world hearing their stories about growing a business. Today's guest has grown her business to over 11,000,000 in revenue, and she's going to share with us how she's done it. Hey everyone. I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Many have asked me what software I use to record such high quality video for this podcast. I use Riverside, and what's great about Riverside is it records the local camera feed from you and your guests around the world, which means crisp 4 k video without having to worry about blurriness due to Internet hiccups. Riverside is also a great editor, fitting with my philosophy of making it easy for yourself to create because there is nothing that your guests or you have to download.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:17]:

We also use Riverside's AI magic clips to find interesting moments for our episode intros. And I'm happy to announce that Riverside is sponsoring this episode. And if you sign up at creators. Riverside.fm /creatorsadventure and use code creators adventure, you'll get 15% off. You can find the link in the episode description as well. Now back to the show. Hey, everyone. We are here today with Caitlin Batcher.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:42]:

She is the CEO of Scale with Success, a company dedicated to teaching coaches and course creators how to turn their online course into a 7 figure business without launching. Her company has rapidly grown to over 11,000,000 in revenue over the last few years with no signs of slowing down. Caitlin learned the hard way that there's more than one path to a successful business. After struggling with inconsistent revenue from constant course launching, she realized that she could opt out. Switching to a new approach, she automated course sales and quickly reached her first 1,000,000 in 9 months, And now she shares this strategy with course creators globally. Caitlin, welcome to the show.

Caitlin Bacher [00:02:22]:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:25]:

Yeah. I'm looking forward to talking with you. So my first question, I'd like to ask everybody this, is what is the biggest thing that you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Caitlin Bacher [00:02:37]:

So, it might be obvious, but the the number one thing that I really did to achieve achieve the freedom that I was desperately craving in my own life is to make the shift from selling my course with the launch model over to an evergreen model.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I wanna get into this, in particular here because for myself, I I'm more of a a software business founder than a course creator at this point, but I don't like launches. I like just continuing to build and then creating a system where the customers can come in so I don't have to deal with the anxiety and and stress of putting it all into these big launches. But before that so before you started your own company, Scale with Success, you were selling online courses using the launching method. So could you elaborate maybe on what launching entails and why you felt it became unsustainable for you?

Caitlin Bacher [00:03:40]:

Yes. So, typically, launching requires around 2 or maybe 3 months of intense list building and content distribution where you are, spending a lot of time and effort into nurture building and nurturing an audience. And during that 2 to 3 month period, it's all leading up to what's called an open cart. And the open cart is that period of time where you are allowing people to enroll in your course. So it could last anywhere between 5 or 7 days. Then after the cart closes, after that 5 to 7 day period, nobody can buy your course until the next launch cycle begins again, which is maybe, 4 months from now, could be even a year later depending on how many times you launch throughout the year. So sometimes people do one big launch. Sometimes they launch 2 or 3 times a year.

Caitlin Bacher [00:04:44]:

Now the problem that most course creators, including myself, found is that when their launch ends, so does all of the excitement and interest they'd been working so hard to generate for their course. And it's a period of radio silence until the launch cycle begins all over again. Now this is a very high risk way of selling your course, especially for newer course creators who are making less than a1000000 a year and probably have a tiny team or no team at all and a really tiny budget. One of the things that I'm always preaching is that if your course is currently generating less than $1,000,000 per year, the number one thing that you need to focus on is generating consistent revenue so that you can really start to get some traction in your business. Like, every plant needs water to grow. Every business needs revenue to thrive. And putting all your eggs in one basket with a high risk launch model is did not work well. I would say it's a recipe for disaster, but here's why I don't wanna say that because I know that there are some people who absolutely love launching and it works for them, and that's totally fine.

Caitlin Bacher [00:06:04]:

But for me, it was a recipe for disaster. And I can think of one launch in particular, where I, I pretty much spent 20 k upfront on creating all of the assets that I needed for, that short open cart period, producing all of the content, paying for ads upfront, paying for various contractors who are going to help me execute the launch because at the time, I didn't have, you know, a full time team of my own or anything like that. And so I spent 20 k upfront on the launch for that course, and you'll never guess how much money I made. Do you wanna take a guess?

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:55]:

It sounds bad. So, I don't know. $5?

Caitlin Bacher [00:06:59]:

Okay. So I make 20 k, which is not That's good.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:02]:

That is at least 2 people.

Caitlin Bacher [00:07:04]:

Right? It's not terrible, but if I'm spending 20 k upfront and I'm earning 20 k, then there's nothing left over to pay myself. And because my business was operating at the time off of off of a launch model, I didn't have another promotion scheduled until, like, 4 months from then. And so there was basically no money for me or my family, and that created a really big problem. And I'm sure that many of your listeners who are using the launch launch model to sell their courses, have found themselves before in a similar situation. And so that's when I really started exploring different avenues to generate consistent revenue. I looked into running a membership. That sounded like a complete nightmare to me. I did not wanna be responsible for, creating, brand new content every single month.

Caitlin Bacher [00:07:57]:

And so what I really wanted to do is focus on how can I how can I sell this how can I go all in with selling this one course? And at the time, that course was all about how to start, how to start and grow a Facebook group. How can I go all in with this one course and generate consistent revenue from it? And also keep in mind that I didn't have a big team, had no money had some money for ads, but not nowhere near, you know, a big ads budget that a lot of people have. Yeah. And so

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:31]:

Well, I think Yeah. That going through that that process of a launch, in in some ways, like, you can learn a lot from it, but it it kinda goes against a lot of the things that are great about being a course creator.

Caitlin Bacher [00:08:42]:

Mhmm.

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:43]:

Because if you wanna have this online course business, you don't have to spend money up to create it. You don't have to, like, order products or manufacture things. And there's a lot of ways that it's a lot easier to to try something and get that feedback. But with a launch, you have to put a lot into it. And even if you're not gonna invest so much in in ads or or hiring contractors, you're putting in at the very least a lot of time only to then find out afterwards. Oh, well, now that I did that, I realized I really messed up here, here, and here, but it's gonna take another maybe 3 or 4 months before you even get to try again. And for a beginner course creator, I think usually, like, that's not something that you have that kind of time because you're trying to get some kind of result from your business, as you said, so you can start to support your family and and grow from there. But I'm curious.

Bryan McAnulty [00:09:31]:

Let's take, like, the devil's advocate would say Yeah. Well, to me, launches sound great because if right now, my course is just every once in a while, somebody trickles in and I'm barely getting sales, the launch is gonna let me build up the hype and and get everyone to buy it. So if if that's the case, what would you say to to someone who's kinda in that position right now?

Caitlin Bacher [00:09:54]:

Yeah. So what I what I wanna start by saying is that, again, there is more than one right way to build a business. So if launching is working for you and I know there's there are some people out there that just, like, love it. They love all the excitement of it. It's like they just feel like they're in their element doing it and it's working for you. Awesome. That's fine. But what what a lot of people struggle with is shifting from that launch model into an evergreen model because they're bringing the same mindset that they use launching, and they're trying to execute that, execute an evergreen strategy using that same mindset.

Caitlin Bacher [00:10:36]:

And so when they find them so they're they're creating situations for themselves where they are having a slow trickle of sales, right, with that evergreen funnel. And what one of the things that I've well, there's 2 things that I've seen that kinda lead to that. 1 is that they're taking what worked well live, and they're just repurposing all of that content into an automated funnel. Right? And they're like, well, okay. I got my evergreen funnel up and running. Like, we're good to go. This worked great live, so I know it's gonna work great in automation. And every time I see people do that, they find themselves in a situation where they're they get a few sales initially.

Caitlin Bacher [00:11:21]:

Right? And then the low hanging fruit is gone. And then they're left with that trickle of sales, and they're like, what's going on? Oh, I guess this means that that my audience will only buy in a launch. I guess this means that evergreen doesn't work for me. When the reality is the buyer's journey is so completely different from being in a launch to being in something automated that it's not that evergreen doesn't work for you. It's the it's the content. It's the strategy that you're doing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:11:57]:

Yeah. Yeah. That that's interesting. So then, what's the solution? What's the difference in in strategy to approach that? Because, also, like, I agree. If if you do enjoy launching, if it is working for you, there the beauty of this kind of business model is there are so many ways you can do it. There is no, like, one right answer. If you like memberships, if you like evergreen launching, like, it all works. You just have to figure out what works for you.

Caitlin Bacher [00:12:22]:

Exactly.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:23]:

But okay. Let's say we we we don't like launches. We we wanna go into figuring this out. What has to change in the mindset, in the Yeah. The marketing and everything to deliver that right?

Caitlin Bacher [00:12:33]:

So I always tell my clients that you have 2 jobs as a CEO. 1, manage your emotions, and 2, measure your results. So the mindset piece of this is that when you're in the launch mindset, you need everything to work perfectly for that very short open cart period. And if it doesn't, you're screwed until the next until you get to then, you know, read your data, look at it, and then 4 or 6 months later, try the whole thing again, try to learn from your mistakes. If you bring that mindset to an evergreen method, you're gonna end up giving up way too soon. So it's kinda like, when you're running an evergreen funnel, you need to approach it almost with the mindset of a scientist that you're just there to experiment. Right? And that is very difficult when you have money on the line. So I totally get it.

Caitlin Bacher [00:13:26]:

And in no way am I saying, you know, like, oh, it's just just put on your, you know, scientist cap and have this, experimental mindset. But what you need to make sure that you're doing is reminding yourself that the goal is consistent improvement over time. And so as long as you are measuring your results, you're tracking your KPIs, you're looking each week at, you know, what is one thing that I can shift or change within my funnel that's going to improve the output, that's gonna improve the conversion rate? Let me try experiment on making a shift to that one thing. And sometimes that one thing is really small. It could be the title of your webinar. It could be an email subject line. And once you're once you make that shift, then you run it for a week and see what the results were. If things improved, great.

Caitlin Bacher [00:14:18]:

Then you move on to solving the next problem. If things do not improve, then great. Now you know that way doesn't work to fix it, so you try a different webinar title or a different, you know, email subject line. But just having this idea in your head that you don't need to put so much pressure on yourself to have it work for this one you know, the first five days or whatever because the better it gets, the better it gets. So it's it's all about consistent growth over time. And that is a really, really big mindset shift because so many people are in this. It's like, they're in the habit of operating as though they're in a sprint instead of operating like they're running a marathon.

Bryan McAnulty [00:15:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're right that people go into it from thinking like, okay. I had the the launch, and then I I waited this long until the next launch, and that's when I tried changing things. But when you're gonna take this evergreen approach, you wanna create that constant feedback loop for yourself. And, like, that's I enjoy that part about software. I think really any any kind of creative business, it's you wanna create that feedback loop for yourself as quickly as possible. And so in this case, it's like finding out, like, what marketing works and resonates with people and then constantly tweaking that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:15:34]:

It's like, that's the same reasons that why you want to, like, try preselling your content and, like, get in front of people first to, like, find out if they have questions and what they think about it. Yeah. I like that. So what happened for for you then when you decided that you you wanted to to shift and then go into not not having these launches?

Caitlin Bacher [00:15:56]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:15:57]:

What was the moment where, like, it clicked, and and what do you feel like you figured out that allow you to to change it and then suddenly become so successful? At least it seems like relatively suddenly, where I think a lot of people, it it would take a while, for them to to get to where you got.

Caitlin Bacher [00:16:13]:

Yeah. So a couple things. The first problem that I really had is that I had just joined, at the time, a mastermind that was all about launching. And so everyone there was almost everyone there was excited about launching. Like, the person who ran it was awesome at launching. And so I went into that thinking, okay. I'm gonna keep like, this launch was bad. I'm just gonna get better at launching.

Caitlin Bacher [00:16:42]:

And there was this one guy in that mastermind who was super, super quiet and unassuming. Nobody really talked to him, but he was selling a $297 course all about how to declutter your home. And he was making over $300,000 per month every month just from selling that one course. And it's and he was without launching. He was just selling at evergreen consistently making sales every day, and that was really the first time where I I realized that there was an alter there wasn't even an alternative to launching. Because I just didn't know. I just thought, oh, this is just what we do. Yeah.

Caitlin Bacher [00:17:22]:

It's hard, but whatever. And so once I saw that, that was kind of that was the the beginning when things started to shift. Right? And so then I remember, like, bringing that up in the master and being like, hey. Why don't we do it this way? And the the host was awesome and he was, like, very open. He was like, well, tell me how that would work and, you know, he was open to it, but other people were like, no, Caitlin. You should just stick with launching, like, da da da, whatever. And so I was like, no. No.

Caitlin Bacher [00:17:45]:

I I really wanna try this because the more I thought about it, the more it just made sense. Like, I would be able to eventually grow my team over time. It's almost like I'd be creating this flywheel where I've been making money consistently, and I could take a portion of that money and then reinvest it, you know, in bits and pieces throughout the year. And so once I once I learned that, I was like, okay. I've got this. You know, I created a plan. I got to work, and my plan was a big flop. And it did not work at all because I was literally taking things that I had done live, and I was like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, package this into here, like, da da da, whatever.

Caitlin Bacher [00:18:35]:

And it just wasn't it wasn't resonating with my audience, the marketing message. Like, I I found myself where I was kind of I was speaking I was speaking more to the points of what I felt like they should want about the course as opposed to what they actually wanted from the course. And because of that, it was like I was constantly kind of talking under them, around them, over them, whatever, And it was creating this misalignment, and so people were not buying. And I remember I I remember I found myself in this spot where I was, like, so what's it like what's it gonna be? Am I just gonna give up on this whole, like, evergreen thing, go back to launching, which also wasn't the best for me, or am I just gonna push through? And because I knew personally that one guy who would didn't I didn't know anyone else that did it. For all I knew, like, maybe it only worked for decluttering courses or whatever. But just because I knew that one guy, I was like, man, if he could do it, I can do it. Like, I know it's at least I know it's possible. I don't know how to get there yet.

Caitlin Bacher [00:19:42]:

I'm not really sure of, like, the road. And there was for sure a lot of trial and error involved. But every week, I would sit there and optimize and improve. And it was just, like, really becoming that scientist and having that outlook where I'm here to run an experiment. If this doesn't work, what's next? What's next? What's next? And and just really focused, like, blocking out everything that everyone else was saying around me and just focusing in on that. And the cool thing about Evergreen is once you've once you find that that thing, that connection and, like, messaging that makes sense between you and your audience, then it's like the growth becomes vertical. Right? So it's like you have a lot of kind of, like, up and down, like, flat period. And then once that latches on, then it's just, like, you know, zoo zooming off.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. And as far as, like, the the scientist approach, like, for those watching or listening, like, that's the right approach, but you don't have to think, like, oh, well, I'm not a scientist. I can't do this. Like, it doesn't have to be that complex. It's really just doing something and then in some way, whatever way that is measuring how it worked or not. And I like the point that you mentioned about, like, realizing, like, you were talking all around and over and under the audience in the beginning. Because, I'm thinking of this.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:04]:

We just recently did a a live workshop with, Abby Prondergast, and she she helps people also with, like, this method of not having to do these launches. And what she mentioned was that for the copy, the the way you can be analytical about it, but not having to be, like, a scientist per se is that look at what they're actually saying. Like, what is your audience actually saying

Caitlin Bacher [00:21:28]:

Mhmm.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:29]:

In like a review or a post or somewhere online and then just literally use, like, the problem that they described in your copy. So then you don't have to worry about, am I speaking to them the the right way that they will understand this? Like, you're literally saying the things that your potential customers have said, and it can it can kinda connect a lot better. Yeah. I'm curious, though, like, would you would you say there's anything else specifically in, like, the language or the approach that should differ between Evergreen and launching? Like, was it really just that that constant iteration that helped you get closer and closer until it really took off? Or do you think, like, if you were gonna take everything you did now and say, now I wanna switch back or I wanna try doing a launch for this product Mhmm. Would you have to change that messaging again or or did the the evergreen, like, refinement that you've done make it easier for you to launch now if you want to?

Caitlin Bacher [00:22:25]:

So that's a hard question because I don't I don't know. Like, I don't want to launch a guest. I like the thought of it makes you. But

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:37]:

Yeah.

Caitlin Bacher [00:22:38]:

But one thing that I think aside from, you know, the iterate like, the iteration, there's one additional thing that I did that was manual work, that wasn't just like, oh, just automated or whatever, that really helped. And I think that this is one thing that would help whether you're doing live launches or evergreen. And that is to get on the phone with everyone who didn't buy and to ask them a series of questions to figure out why. And I totally get it that, you know, every whenever I ask people that, they're like, oh, yeah. Well, everyone who doesn't buy just says, you know, it's too much money or I don't have enough time to do it. And I I get that, but what's happening is your audience is saying that because they just don't wanna get into all the specifics. Now, of course, there's in some cases, like, it really is just out of their budget, and that's totally cool. But for a lot of people, they think, you know what? This method sounds awesome.

Caitlin Bacher [00:23:34]:

This sounds like it could work, but it's not gonna work for me because x, y, or z. And the only way you're gonna figure out what those x, y, or z things are is to get on the phone with them. And so that's one thing that we have actually built into, into our own funnels is that afterwards, there's a survey that goes out for everyone that didn't buy, and we follow-up with people and email them back and say, hey. Can we actually get on a phone call? You know? Because the needs of the market do shift over time. And that's another thing to to keep in mind when you're doing evergreen is that you can't you don't just set it up once and then forget it about it forever. Right? Because the demands of your market are changing. And so if you have something in place, like some kind of follow-up survey where then you can get on the phone with people and be like, hey. So, like, what have you tried before? Why do you think that didn't work? Why do you what are you planning on doing next? Why do you think that's gonna work? And you're asking those kinds of questions, you're gonna find out so much information that you can put in your marketing, just like Abby said.

Caitlin Bacher [00:24:39]:

Imagine being able to then say, like, and I get it. I know right now you're thinking, well, I'm just gonna try this, you know, this other thing. And they're watching, and they're like, what? How did you actually know I was thinking that? And it's because you're just using their words.

Bryan McAnulty [00:24:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I like that point about getting on the phone because that that brings up, like, another risk of doing a traditional launch that you might have a super successful launch. 3 months later, you go and do another one and it kinda flops. And then you realize, oh, well, actually, something shifted a little bit in the market, but you don't get to find that out until you kinda messed one up. Yeah. And with Evergreen, you can constantly refine that. And and you're right.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:19]:

Like, people will say, oh, I don't have time. I don't have money. But if you're on the phone with them, then you can just go one little step further and say, well, if this happened, like, if this would happen and then this would get you that result. Right? Like, why would that why would that not make it worth it to figure out the time or the money part? And then, like, that that small little thing can get them to reveal something even, like, unconsciously. They may really not that they're holding back and they don't wanna talk to you. They may not even realize it for themselves until you ask them that and then they say, well, I don't believe this would work for me because of that or I'm worried about this other thing, and now you can correct your marketing. So, yeah, I I think it's super important to get on the phone and and talk with customers. Too many creators approach this of, oh, I want passive income right away, and, it's all gonna be automated.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:05]:

But eventually, you can get to that point where you're you're doing less of that and and you have a a greater separation of your time from what you're doing. But I think it's so helpful to talk with people, especially in the beginning. And, like, it's not really like a sales call or something. It doesn't feel bad to talk with them. It's a great experience to talk with them often. And, it's super helpful to to help you actually understand and and move a lot faster instead of wondering why things aren't working.

Caitlin Bacher [00:26:31]:

Yeah. For sure.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:34]:

So I wanna shift a little bit then and just ask kinda, like, horses in general. From your perspective, what would you say is, like, something that distinguishes, like, a course that kinda fails from one that achieves a significant success success? Is there Yeah. Like, specific factors or strategies that you would say make the biggest difference?

Caitlin Bacher [00:26:55]:

So I I really think the number one thing the number one difference between, you know, a course that fails and ones that one that makes millions is really connection. And I can use that specific example that I had where I was talking around or over or under my audience, and I wasn't connecting with the specific problem that they were having. And I think that as course creators, we are in this business because we are creative. We have a vision of what we want to create. And because we're, we know a lot about whatever niche we're in, sometimes we wanna jump jump ahead and start and talk about solving kind of those root cause problems for peep for, that people are experiencing. Right? So people are aware that they have, certain symptoms, and their main concern is getting those, well, I call them symptoms. What they're calling them is problems, getting those problems solved. And so if I'm able to speak to solving those problems, then we can move then they can connect with me, and we're able to move on to the next step and so on and so forth.

Caitlin Bacher [00:28:07]:

But if because I'm able to see that super that what I call superficial problem, that symptom, and say, oh, I know what's really going on. It's all this stuff down here and this is the really juicy and exciting part for me. So I'm gonna put all this root cause stuff inside of my top of funnel marketing and I'm gonna, like, attract all these people and da da da, but it just goes over their head. They don't get it. You have to speak to problems that they're actively aware that they are experiencing. You shouldn't need to convince someone that they are experiencing a problem. Right? And I see that happen a lot. I've done it myself, where I'm like, oh, so, you know, with your for example, with the Facebook group course, I was wanting to focus on profitability, but they didn't care about that.

Caitlin Bacher [00:28:54]:

They just wanted an engaged Facebook group. So here I am being like, no. You don't want engagement. Engagement, bad. Profit, good. You know? And they're, like, no. Like, we literally just we want because in their mind, if they had engagement, they would make money. And what I saw time and time again was high engagement and people not making any money at all.

Caitlin Bacher [00:29:14]:

So I had to change the way that I was talking about my program and so that I can really build that connection. And another way of thinking of that connection is kinda like, it's almost like a golden thread. So it's that golden thread that connects your product to your marketing, to your sales, to the delivery, to to the product. Like, it just kinda goes around and around. And when you're selling evergreen, you're competing for attention from people on so many fronts. Not just your competitors, you're competing with attention from what that person's gonna cook for dinner tonight, when they need to pick their kid up from school, what their boss told them the day before. Like, you're you're competing for attention on so many fronts, and so the beauty of Evergreen is that over time, that golden thread becomes brighter and stronger, and you can connect with someone and bring them through that whole process even though, you know, all these other things are going on, in their life. But that takes time, and it's not gonna it's definitely not gonna I don't care how many launches you've done.

Caitlin Bacher [00:30:28]:

It's not gonna happen the very first week that, you know, you go evergreen. And that's okay because it's all about getting better over

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:38]:

time. Yeah. I think that's a a skill that that happens in a lot of marketing and content creation even more nowadays. Like, I'm thinking of YouTube, for example, and I'm by by no means an expert of this on YouTube, but I know that there's a lot of times where you have this idea for video or content that you wanna teach people or show people or a story you wanna tell, But you can't just, like, make the title about that thing necessarily because that's not what people know about or care about or are searching for. So you've gotta package it in a way that this is the thing that they're looking for, and then the way you're presenting that solution connects to it. But it's actually not the same thing. So it's not intuitive to you as the creator because the first thing that comes to your mind of what you're literally trying to say and and how you're gonna their problems. Like, your example, the Facebook group, I'm gonna help make you profitable.

Bryan McAnulty [00:31:29]:

Like, isn't that great? Yeah. It's not exactly, like, the the pain point that connects to them of how they would actually get to that content from you in the first place. But yeah. But once you can connect it, it can really get strong.

Caitlin Bacher [00:31:42]:

And kinda with that that top of funnel content, whether it's the, you know, the title of your YouTube video or the content of the YouTube video itself, that's really meant to educate people about their problems so that they understand what what their problems are, why their problems are happening, common mistakes that are made, all of that kind of thing. And then once they sign up for your funnel, once they get into your funnel, then they're gonna be gradually over time introduced to, oh, and this is my approach to solving your problem. And here's what makes my approach, you know, different and unique and, and all of that. And sometimes people get overexcited and they start talking about all of that in the top of funnel content. And, again, it's just like, whoosh, way going over their heads.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. A way I like to think of it is, like, constantly looking at every piece of marketing or communication with the customer and thinking from the customer's eyes, like, why do I care about this at this point? Because you as the creator, you have all this jargon and things you wanna talk about, but your customer is not at that level with you necessarily yet. And so you have to get them to a point where eventually they will be, but if they're not yet, you have to understand what they currently care about and make sure you're speaking to that.

Caitlin Bacher [00:33:00]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:02]:

So I'm curious. What do you feel are maybe some myths that there are about, creators hearing about building, like, a a $1,000,000 course business? Because I think, like, what you said earlier, seeing that example of somebody doing the the evergreen strategy, like, being able to see that was enough for you to realize this is possible. Mhmm. And I I know that especially probably people who have watched or listened to this podcast, like, you've heard stories of other creators who are really successful. But I still think people tend to actually underestimate the possibility of what they couldn't achieve and think like, oh, yeah. There's 1 or 2 people that are pretty successful, but I guess I could get get to this point. And, like, yeah, it depends on what you want, but I think people are are not aware that, like, with what they have to teach, even if it's not maybe a specifically, like, money making skill or something, you can build, like, a $1,000,000 business from that. So what what would you say about, the kind of myths around that?

Caitlin Bacher [00:33:59]:

Yeah. So I'm so glad you brought that up because one of the reasons why I think people believe that is because people like me are out here talking about how much money we make. And the reason why we talk about that is because I'm teaching people how to make money. So I have to make sure that people understand that I have made money for myself and I've helped my clients make money and that's why I'm talking about. But what they don't see is all of these, you know, peep regular everyday people out there that have these multimillion dollar per year course businesses, memberships, and they're selling things like how to play guitar. Like, these are things that my clients have literally taught and made millions from. Pilates, how to play guitar, how to needle felt a portrait of your dog. That was a real specific course, but she made a ton of money from it.

Caitlin Bacher [00:34:57]:

Gardening, like, all these little things. Now you're never gonna find that person on the Internet telling everyone, hey. I just made $300,000 this month from my decluttering course because they there's no point to them doing that. Right? But but they are absolutely doing that. And the cool thing is about other markets like that outside of the, you know, how to build a business niche or whatever, is that a lot for a a lot of times, the cost to acquire a customer through that is much less than it is to acquire a customer for your course about how to create a course or whatever it is because it's competitive out there.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:41]:

Yeah. The the kinda, like, make money online niche is super, super competitive

Caitlin Bacher [00:35:45]:

Mhmm.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:46]:

Compared to, to many other things. And, yeah, I can attest to that as well. I think as as an entrepreneur, like, you're being targeted by, like, people like yourself who are trying to teach you how to make money. And so, yeah, you don't see the the other side of it, but I always feel bad when I see somebody online and they're saying like, oh, this is just some, like, grifter on the Internet trying to sell me this thing about how to make money. Like, yes, there are a couple people out there like that, but there's actually so few people that are actually like that. Most of them, like, they they are truly experts if you're spending all this money on advertising and and doing all these things. Like, you've been really successful at what you're doing. And the reality is, like, I I get to see, like, firsthand, I have thousands of customers creating courses, and I don't like, I can't think of anyone where, like, I'm talking with my support team and, like, oh, there's there's that that person there, like, the total grifter always trying to trick people.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:38]:

Right. I cannot think of a customer that we have like that, but I can think of countless examples of, like, all these creative courses that are about things you would never imagine that could even be a course and people are really successful.

Caitlin Bacher [00:36:49]:

Mhmm.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:50]:

So so, hopefully, we we can instill some, some positivity and and belief that it is possible for you even if you're watching and listening to this and you think the thing that you're interested in is actually this niche topic, it you still could have a lot of potential with that. I got a couple more questions for you. My my next one is, what do you think are like, what trends do you anticipate, like, in the online course industry? What do you think is going to be different than the next year or 2, and how do you believe that will impact creators?

Caitlin Bacher [00:37:21]:

So that's a good question. I think that one of the one of the big things that, you know, year after year becomes more and more important, especially as more people enter the online course space. Like, you know, people talk about a lot about, oh, this is like, the online course is such a a great growing industry and there's so much opportunity, And that is that is also true, and it's true that there is a lot of competition because more and more people are entering the space. And I think that the more people can lean into really showing up as themself online and not feeling like they have to, you know, have this, like, a specific, online personality, like, and they can just kinda show up and be themselves. Like, people now, because everyone is online, they're very perceptive, and they can kind of tell if someone is being disingenuous, if they're watching even if they're just watching, like, a little one minute, you know, video on Instagram or whatever. And I think that I think it's normal when you're first starting out to kinda look to other people and be like, oh, like, I wanna model myself after this or, like, the way this person talks or the way this person behaves on camera. And and I think that's just, like, a normal part of, you know, learning anything new. But the more you can let go of that and really connect with just being yourself, like, people people will see that, and it's just like it's so it's so magnetic.

Caitlin Bacher [00:39:13]:

It's so interesting. Like, I remember when, when I was first starting to sell courses this is, like, way back in the day with, like, Periscope. So for any listeners that don't know what Periscope is, you really missed out. But, anyway, so what what happened is Periscope was one of the first times first platforms where you could go go live. Right? And so people were doing that, and I just remember it was it was so refreshing. Like, I could I would just show up live, like, in my sweatpants. I'd be running around with my daughter. I'd be doing whatever.

Caitlin Bacher [00:39:45]:

I'd be like, oh, like, let's look at your, you know, at your this or at your that. And, like, let me give you some helpful tips on, you know, this or that or whatever. And I think that when you look at now, even things like, you know, TikTok or some of those, Instagram or real or Instagram stories where people kind of open up and share a little bit more of their, kind of day to day life, I think people just really resonate and connect with that. Like you don't need you don't need a big fancy video setup. You don't need all kinds of equipment to make this happen. It's really it's really you and the light inside of you that's gonna, that's gonna attract people. And and people don't need to get caught up in, you know, in making things super aesthetically perfect right right from the start. Like, over time, like, yes, you'll eventually hire someone to style your shelf or whatever, as I have done.

Caitlin Bacher [00:40:56]:

But but you don't have to you don't have to start with all of that. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:01]:

Yeah. I think that's an excellent point and super important not only as there's more competition and people online, but also with AI. Like, people wanna see authenticity. And I always feel bad, like, we're an AI course platform in the sense we've got this AI assistant and AI coach that we give to creators. But, specifically, like, those all these AI features that we have, it doesn't write the course content for you. I always feel bad when someone sends us an email and says, well, can it now do all the course content for me? And I say, no. Because the reason people are gonna buy it is your unique message and, like, who you are. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:38]:

And so that's what they're connecting with. And the the beauty of that and how it connects to this kind of business model is you really can just be yourself. And if people don't see you anywhere online, and it's kinda like, well, what is this? I don't know if I should trust this. It's not it's not like you said, like, they're they're early days. If you think of, like, when email newsletters first became a thing, like, if you had an email newsletter, you were emailing people and you had something from them to buy. It was like, well, this is no one else is doing this. This is kinda cool. Okay.

Bryan McAnulty [00:42:05]:

I'm gonna buy this person's thing. But But now everyone's doing that, and if you don't see anywhere, like, to indicate who that person really is online, then it's a lot harder to connect with them and trust them. And so nobody cares if you're the biggest expert in the world at that thing or or the most professional. They just wanna see who you really are. So I I love that advice.

Caitlin Bacher [00:42:25]:

Yeah. We had a one of our clients was, in talking about, you know, like, having creating courses or creating content from your own unique lived experiences, she was a housekeeper for many years. She and she got really good and really fast because the more more houses she could clean, the more money she could make. So she had it down to, like, a science, a real system. So she actually took that system, she packaged it into a course, and then she sold it to busy parents who wanted to figure out a system they didn't wanna hire, you know, someone else to clean it for them. They wanted to figure out how to clean their clean their house, and she made 1,000,000 of dollars from selling this course. And the reason why people connected with her is because it was all based on her experience. It wasn't created, like you said, from some AI thing or some, like, collection of a whole bunch of different blogs on how to clean your house.

Caitlin Bacher [00:43:26]:

She was in there doing it for so long, so she knew, like, all the tricks, all the time saving hacks. And so I I think people I think people have so much innate value to offer the world based on those life experiences and and don't and the the one thing that I see happen a lot is sometimes they discount it because they're good at it. And so they're like, oh, no. Like, well, nobody wants to, like, learn how to clean their house or, like, nobody it's like, no. People really struggle with this. Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for someone else. Like, think back to where you were when you started. Was it super easy? Well, no.

Caitlin Bacher [00:44:04]:

It would take me all day to clean a house. Okay. Well, now you're able to do it in 2 hours. So how in the heck do you do that?

Bryan McAnulty [00:44:11]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great example. Alright. I've got one more question for you, and that is that on the show, I like to have every guest ask a question to the audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether it's something you're curious about, something you wanna kinda get everybody thinking about, what would that be?

Caitlin Bacher [00:44:27]:

So here's one okay. Here's one question that I like to ask. When you when you make a mistake, what do you make it mean? And what does what impact does that meaning have on your business? And the reason why I say that is because there is so much about business that relies on you needing to make mistake after mistake after mistake. Even if you're playing following a plan, even if you're following a system, mistakes are gonna happen. And the sooner you can let go of all of that baggage, that mental baggage around what it means about you as a person to make a mistake. The sooner you can let that go, the faster you're gonna grow your business. And anytime you look at someone who is generating more money than you, it's not that they have more talent. It's that they've made if they're making 10 x the money, they've made a 100 x a 100 x the mistakes.

Caitlin Bacher [00:45:37]:

And so it's like, how can you, so that would be the question that I would say is, what do you make it mean when you make a mistake, and what what impact does that meaning have on your business?

Bryan McAnulty [00:45:52]:

Awesome. Yeah. I love that. I know I've said it on the podcast before even that one of my favorite articles I've ever seen from Tim Ferriss was the art of letting bad things happen and realizing you have to become comfortable with something going wrong if you wanna have more things go right. And so I think that's a super important skill to have and think to realize because it's not easy. You have to you have to become more and more comfortable with it over time and realize that whether it went right or wrong or or more wrong than maybe you thought it would have, it's like you would wanna keep doing it later and and that's how you learn and that's how you improve. And, definitely, I mean, I have and I'm I'm sure you have as well, like, made so many mistakes and that's why we're at where we are today.

Caitlin Bacher [00:46:34]:

Yes.

Bryan McAnulty [00:46:36]:

Alright. Well, Caitlin, thanks so much for coming on the show. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Caitlin Bacher [00:46:42]:

Well, you can follow me on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active. My handle is Caitlin Batcher. And you can also take a peek at my website, Caitlin Batcher dot com. I've got some free worse resources there. You can listen to some some of, some of my older podcast episodes. So check it out.

Bryan McAnulty [00:47:01]:

Thanks so much. I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 creators at creatorclimb.com. If you enjoyed this episode and wanna hear more, check out the Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9 AM US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our newsletter at thecreatorsadventure.com. Until then, keep learning, and I'll see you in the next episode.